by jhwygirl
Oh Lord…where to begin?
Let’s start: It’s Montana! It’s going to snow! Slow the ^#*% down!
How’s that for starters?
Oh, and QUIT WHINING!
I can not BELIEVE that people are calling Mayor’s office to complain and city council members are chastising his office for his so-called poor handling of the matter.
Snow?! Are you kidding me? Seriously? We’ve got Gaza being bombed, U.S. soldiers under attack in Iraq and Afghanistan, China torturing prisoners, toxic radioactive coal sludge polluting an area right here in the USA – an area larger than the Valdez spill which has yet to be cleaned up, people dying for lack of healthcare, the economy in the toilet, AND electronic signs going up on South Avenue right across from historic Fort Missoula and people are complaining about snow piles in the middle of the road?!
How frickin’ self-centered can we be?
How’s about this? If there is a snow pile in the middle of the road and you are having trouble getting in your driveway because of it …. DRIVE AROUND THE BLOCK.
OR, better yet – park your car and go into your garage and grab your shovel and get rid of that annoying snow pile in the middle of the road. The exercise’ll do you good.
Me? I actually kinda like those snow piles in the middle of the road. It makes me feel safer from the idiots driving around like it’s the middle of the summer. If they’re going to do a 360 in the middle of the road because they’re driving too fast, at least let them stay on their side of the road.
Here’s some other tips:
#1 – The stopping distance to that stop sign up ahead just got longer. It’s not 25 feet – it’s something like a hundred. Again – slow the ^#*% down. That helps. Tremendously.
#2 – Start s-l-o-w-l-y at that stop sign. I can not BELIEVE how many idiots I see hitting the gas like some brainless video-playing fools. Know what? Those spinning tires are making ice.
#3 – See #1 – because some idiot – about a dozen of ‘em in the last 3 hours, in fact – just cruised up to that stop sign like it was July 1st and hit the brakes and made ice.
We aren’t halfway through winter, yet we are $9,000 into our $15,000 overtime snow removal budget. See where this is going?
SLOW DOWN! It works and it’s less expensive. Trust me. McDonalds and Walmart will still be there.
If you’re going to call the Mayor to complain, forget about the snow because YOU SHOULD BE SLOWING DOWN and instead, tell him we need some affordable housing.
January 5, 2009 at 11:09 pm
amen j-girl.
as for snow-complainers, i think maybe it’s a product of folks being powerless when it comes to the big issues, so people lash out any way they can. Some antagonize local blogs. Some write idiotic letters to the Missoulian. Some try and waste the mayor’s time, etc.
What doesn’t make the papers is the kindness that actually does occur when the unifying force of mother nature strikes. For every asshole that bitches about snow-berms, there are people shoveling their elderly neighbors sidewalks. When a car gets stuck, strangers help the stranded motorist.
Again, thank you j-girl for contextualizing the ridiculousness of the bitching. serious shit is going down, and folks are angry at the snow. Blows my mind.
January 5, 2009 at 11:11 pm
I thought of you as I wrote it.
;-)
January 6, 2009 at 4:23 am
Toxic radioactive coal sludge????
Nothing illuminates winter driving like a pie graph.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_3QqO8EXd-II/SWI8erivNAI/AAAAAAAAlHA/5QtvqqeJeV4/s1600-h/imagesreasons-20for-20
January 6, 2009 at 6:20 am
Radioactive reference here.
Even the EPA has acknowledge that the sludge contains concentrates that become radioactive.
Three weeks later, and the government still hasn’t disclosed what is in it.
Like they don’t know yet? Seriously?
January 6, 2009 at 6:25 am
Well, you best be getting rid of your smoke detectors.
Via your link, at the bottom.
“McBride and his co-authors estimated that individuals living near coal-fired installations are exposed to a maximum of 1.9 millirems of fly ash radiation yearly. To put these numbers in perspective, the average person encounters 360 millirems of annual “background radiation” from natural and man-made sources, including substances in Earth’s crust, cosmic rays, residue from nuclear tests and smoke detectors.”
January 6, 2009 at 6:28 am
They’re not breathing it, Big Swede – although I can’t imagine why you’d be comfortable doing so, I know I wouldn’t be – they’re swimming in it.
January 6, 2009 at 6:38 am
And aside from micronic layers of this stuff laying down in soil for hundreds of miles around coal-fired plants, getting into food (plants and animals), it’s a myth that it’s clean.
Even EPA exempts (or did up until recently, due to being sued) certain regulatory standards specifically for coal-fired plants.
Go check your buddy Greg out at Electric City Weblog.
Great Falls Firefly is also another source with good information.
January 6, 2009 at 7:01 am
Ranting right back atcha!
You want people to call the Mayor about the Gaza strip?
Calling the Mayor about potholes and snow removal and excessive magnetic fields in the neighborhood, and Satanic messages in the downtown business signs, all well within the purview of the Mayor and part of his or her routine.
Right up there with much ado about the meaningless budget deadlines, which was worth at least two entries and a newspaper article.
Local government is about your backyard, or rather, your neighbor’s backyard. It’s about the potholes, sidewalks, signs, dogs barking, curbs and gutters, how long the yellow lights last, too many cars parked in front of your house, and the berm of snow in front of your driveway; it’s about the local cop watching the school crosswalk and it’s about keeping the toilets flushing and the faucets running.
If ya don’t like the mundane, local government isn’t a topic for you all. Trying to involve local government in foreign policy is ridiculous. All council people know about foreign policy is what they read on blogs. On the other hand, they are well schooled on curbs and gutters and sign ordinances.
I forgot chickens.
January 6, 2009 at 7:16 am
umm…I think the school district is responsible for school crossings, goof – and in Missoula, our water is delivered by a private entity.
You missed the snark, obviously. I don’t think Engen can do a friggin’ thing about Gaza. Affordable housing, yes.
Go have your coffee. Or tea.
January 6, 2009 at 7:32 am
So, the school district writes tickets to people who run through school xings? But I see what you’re saying, it’s the school district that has the authority to levy for “transportation”. Think they’d use some of that for safe pedestrian routes to schools? But it’s the city, or county or state cops who enforce the school speed zones and the rules about crosswalks.
Forgot about the privatized water system. Interesting idea…
Regarding the Mayor and Gaza…you’re right, he can’t, not any more than the Council and Iraq, right?
January 6, 2009 at 7:59 am
I like shoveling snow. When I was recently back in my small hometown of Elkhart Lake, WI for the holidays they had a good 3 to 4 feet on the ground. I found myself doing plenty of shoveling all around the town to help everyone out (Just ask Dicky Bender at the historic Cal and Gus mechanic shop). Anyway, I needed to do something to counter the effects of all those old-fashions, holiday cookies and cousin Chuck’s bratwurst.
However, I do believe that the city of Missoula does a poor job with snow removal. I feel like the downhill trend started once the city switched from plowing and sanding to what currently looks more like driving around with your plow blade up and dumping chemical de-icers at some intersections.
Trust me, I fully understand the issue of dust coming from the sand. It’s something I’ve had issues about in the past as well. However, that problem could be solved by a more aggressive street sweeping approach from Feb to April when the streets dry out. Plus, sand is a local, non-toxic resource. That’s why I think a combo of plowing (with the blade actually dropped down, moving snow to the curbs) and sanding would be a good approach.
While I do think some people are making too big a deal about the plowing, I also do think it’s a big public safety issue and there is no reason why people should feel like they can’t contact city officials to ensure that our roads are as safe as possible. Improvements can and should be made and they should be welcomed by city officials.
P.S. Below is some information about Kalispell’s experience with chemcial de-icers.
http://dailyinterlake.com/articles/2008/12/22/news/local_montana/news_8770044896_04.txt
Snip: “According to a news release from Kalispell Parks and Recreation, the decline of some trees on downtown boulevards could be due to de-icers. Recent soil samples have indicated that the amount of salts is having an adverse affect on the trees.”
P.P.S: As if on que…it’s the school bus coming down our unplowed street right now, full of people’s kids….
January 6, 2009 at 8:26 am
I agree with Matthew. It may be overblown, but the plowing and snow removal activities are important to public safety. Even slowing down your motorized or non-motorized vehicle may not even solve your problems. I think bicyclists actually have it much tougher during the winter since the snow banks get pushed onto their bike lanes. I also think the city ordinance about shoveling sidewalks is good for pedestrians. No amount of “slowing down” will keep everyone from falling on their arse… I guess they could wear spikes on their shoes/boots. Anyhoo, even growing up in Missoula with nasty winters I still believe the City and County ought to concern themselves with snow removal and complaints regarding… as should the state for state roads and the feds for federal highways.
Maybe I’ve slid into too many snowbanks and falling too many times and had too many near misses to think otherwise. Watch out!!! I’ll be driving to work in about 30 minutes!!!
January 6, 2009 at 9:09 am
I think failing to address the Gaza Strip and Yucca Mountain will go down as the two defining failures of the Engen administration.
January 6, 2009 at 9:16 am
Is this what they talked about at city council last night? Good Grief!!
No wonder there was no city council article in the Missoulian this morning. Is the council out of step with the Mayor’s office–say it ain’t so. Where is the city’s communications director? This calls for a press release!
If people (other than J-gal) had a lick of since, they would go out a buy a 4×4 today. I have one and could care less if they plow a street all winter. You would be doing yourself a BIG favor. Those suckers can drive right over a PILE OF SNOW in the middle of the road. Besides, the automakers could use the business.
For goodness sakes people, leave the poor mayor alone. He has more important issues to deal with, like picking a fight with the state over the lamplights on the Orange Street Bridge and crafting a cooperative solution for the Russell Street Bridge, before it falls into the Clark Fork. After he has the state whipped into shape, and the bridge lights on, he is going to unleash a can of Millar-whoop ass on affordable housing in ZooTwn.
January 6, 2009 at 9:59 am
For some snow removal may seem trite but it sounds like you take for granted your ability to drive and walk -think about people who are disabled, use a cane to walk (on ice!), or other health/age related limitations. Or maybe you advocate social darwinism – if someone can’t get around well too bad for him/her. Maybe you think that people without physical or monetary ability to navigate the unplowed streets should just stay home…maybe you think parent with young children should just tough it out in their substandard car without snow tires…it’s an economic issue. It also sounds like you think everyone drives. I’m all about think global and act local…yes we live in Montana and love the seasons, however our government should be prepared and budget to serve all citizens, not just the young healthy ones who can afford to buy a new 4×4 – go petroleum! This means appropriate snow removal.
January 6, 2009 at 10:38 am
I thought this was… Montana?
January 6, 2009 at 10:46 am
Stan at the boot shop near shakespeare’s book store on south 3rd street can put great hobnails on an old pair of boots that i defy you to slip on. very affordable too. (and the conversation with stan is worth the price of admission alone) – traction bear.
January 6, 2009 at 10:46 am
You really need to consider the scope of government. The city government is responsible for the city, and so on. Seeing as how the city doesn’t have much responsibility for what happens overseas, maybe they should take care of their own.
that us the citizens of Missoula. and yes i agree that people drive too fast, but when an entire street has to be blocked off because motorists, 4×4 Wreckers (yes more than one), and police officers are getting stuck at the same time, there is a problem beyond defensive driving. obviously not All of these parties were driving irresponsibly, and the prosecutor agrees with me on that one.
There has to be a happy medium of safe drivers and safe roads. This IS Montana and there WILL be snow so EVERYONE (including the city) needs to be responsible, whether it be to drive slower or properly maintain the roads.
January 6, 2009 at 10:47 am
josephina – we haven’t had a good snow year in missoula since 1996- the year the snow came up over my picket fence and elk roamed in herds through town, so a lot of us are out of practice at this winter thing…
January 6, 2009 at 11:40 am
“Or maybe you advocate social darwinism.”
No, wait, that’s it.
January 6, 2009 at 11:40 am
if someone can’t get around well too bad for him/her.>>>>
Yep it’s the American way–it’s called the Katrina model!
We need the mayor to give us one of his famous talks on the view from 30,000 ft.–”Well boys, from up here all you see is a bunch of white. All those funny little dots are the elderly, disabled, and chickens stuck in a snow drift”
January 6, 2009 at 12:47 pm
Back when I was more active in political campaigns, we’d hold these meetings and coffees, etc., so that voters could chat with local candidates.
Being somewhat naive, I thought the issues would focus on growth and planning and open space and that sort of thing.
What did people really want? Decent police and fire protection, and that their STREETS BE PLOWED.
A sordid sex scandal would do less damage to a council member or mayor than a poor job at snow removal.
January 6, 2009 at 1:35 pm
Oh look…here finally comes a city snowplow down our street…with it’s plow blade up in the air 3 feet off the ground! Lot of good that will do! Bummer too, there are hardly any cars parked in the street and a snowplow with a blade actually down could have really moved some snow off the streets.
January 6, 2009 at 2:28 pm
Relatedly – what do people think about snow removal following the street cleaning policies? Have cars moved so the complete street could be plowed. Certainly it won’t always fit with the snowfall schedule, but it could help… and make the City’s a job a little bit (just a little bit) easier.
January 6, 2009 at 3:11 pm
Pete:
Matt Koehler:
I contend that there is one helluva difference between plowing and snow removal. Matthew, I ask: where would that plow have removed the snow to? Off the driving lane, no doubts, turning a two lane street into a one lane street as it builds a berm. You would ideally be able to navigate that one lane street if a) you can get your car past the dam in front of your driveway, b) unlock your street-parked vehicle from the dirty packed ice vault in which it now resides, and/or c) have any hope of parking in whatever your residential destination happens to be.
Goof may find it humorous that I actually have some sympathy and compassion for the ‘Zone’s snow crews. They got a tough job trying to keep the rich folk on Wilson happy and still provide for traffic flow among us po’ folk. In some parts of town, the snow is removed. In our part, it is piled, and then we shovel, and the snow gets piled some more, (though I do notice pains taken to remove snow in front of street facing businesses and yet the closest a plow came to the curb on the residential side was 6 feet, even though no vehicles were parked there for two days after the big storm.)
But on the plus side, cars buried in the snow-berms on Wilson have been tagged and ticketed, and none us’n lil folk have been.
In sum, I think Pete is as correct as he can be for someone who draws a false dichotomy. Snow removal (not just plowing) is exactly a city planning – open space issue, and it is damned important to those of us who have our boots on the ice, so to speak. These cities are in Montana, not Arizona, and poor reaction to an obviously onerous condition due to poor planning will not win you many friends.
January 6, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Perhaps it is time for Missoula’s snow plowing to go the rout of garbage collection, water service, and fire hydrant maintenance. Just because other cities provide these services, do we really need to waste Missoula tax dollars on these things? People could pay a private company for the plow, and the city could shift the money from streets to building a bigger sewer system.
All these silly services for town folk when there are things like ball parks to be built and subdivisions to be annexed–just seems like a waste of good tax dollars.
What we need is Monty’s Big-Plow Inc. Everyone who wants a plow to visit their street would have to purchase the service from the MBP,Inc. Heck, I bet you could even get a budget billing system out of a private company. You could spread out your plowing cost over twelve months!
January 6, 2009 at 4:37 pm
Let me guess Drivefasttakechances, Halliburton has a snowplow business?
January 6, 2009 at 4:51 pm
Snow plowing or snow removal should be looked at from a public safety viewpoint. The less wrecks, the less cars and people that need to be fixed, or buried/recycled.
We can either spend tax dollars maintaining our roads, and creating a safe transportation network, or we can spend money on increased insurance rates for car and health insurance to pay for the cars and people broken due to car wrecks (or running over bicyclists or pedestrians). Insurers keep track of these sorts of thing, and track them by zip code. Missoula zip? Tack on a 10% insurance surcharge for poor plowing.
Really, if we think about it that way, we’re going to pay for the fact that snow falls out of the sky in Montana and piles up one way or another. Plow it or remove it with taxes, or fix consequences through health and car insurance. Either way we’re going to pay for it.
I’d rather we cut out the insurer-subsidized body man–either for cars or or people–and pay the taxpayer provided one to keep our streets safe.
January 6, 2009 at 5:02 pm
Oh, and one more thing.
If our overtime budget for snow plowing is really $15,000, then that is less than the cost of one almost new Subaru getting totaled by a wayward Silverado sliding across the ice. The cost of that Subaru getting crunched comes out of our collective insurance-bled pockets.
Poor snow plowing habits by any city turns all of us into socialists through all of us having to pay for property and personal damages through the insurance industry.
Even the poor and uninsured bicyclist and pedestrian that gets shmucked gets insurance money when a car slides on the ice and takes them out (if they survive, that is).
I’d be happy to see the total cost of crunched cars and people added up after a winter like this, and then try and convince our city/county administrations that they need to invest in a safer transportation system (including for bikes and people and public transit) to minimize those costs.
Bob G., you listening?
January 6, 2009 at 6:05 pm
really? “AND electronic signs going up on South Avenue right across from historic Fort Missoula” Thats where I stopped reading your post. Take a lesson in local geography. Big Sky is across from Fort Missoula.
January 6, 2009 at 6:33 pm
30 comments and you were the first to point that out, Dan.
Gold star for you, and I’m not being snarky.
I did get the street and its perspective to Fort Missoula right, though.
{hanging head in shame}
January 6, 2009 at 6:57 pm
Pete Talbot nailed it.
I read where the Mayor of Denver damn near lost his job over a bad job of snow removal. Only some slick pr moves like shovelin little ole ladies’ sidewalks and wearin a hard hat and gettin some pics drivin the plow saved his butt.
As the comments show, it’s more than a whine!
It does factor into planning too, for example, the road diet and the design of thrussell…gotta have those boulevards to hold the snow load! Otherwise the city plows the snow onto the curbwalk, then the homeowner/business owner has to shovel it right back out into the street. And it’s hard and crusty and tough shoveling too. Those boulevards make a nice place to put…street trees too.
I’m thinking “alternative street parking” for snow routes. Yep, give us grader oper-aiders a clean scrape down one side one day, down the other side the next day. Nobody gets plowed in, the graders can drop the gate at every driveway, and even the bikes got room.
For those places where the neon lights aren’t so bright, the city still has to plow…although in old Bozeman there was one set of wagon wheel ruts down the local streets, and if ya met another car, you or he backed up to the nearest corner and made way.
Local streets just don’t have to be a “ticket giving and stored vehicle towing” priority. And the traffic gets really slow and that’s really…all good on a local street, and not all bad even on a collector.
January 6, 2009 at 7:20 pm
http://www.governing.com/articles/0812glimpse.htm
January 6, 2009 at 7:21 pm
“As winter sets in, mayors in northern climes may want to reflect on something that David Axelrod, one of the masterminds of Barack Obama’s presidential campaign, once said about snow. “Any mayor in any administration who doesn’t feel an absolute sense of urgency when there’s a major winter storm,” Axelrod said, “is someone planning for his next career.”
January 6, 2009 at 7:28 pm
I’m never writing about snow plowing again.
January 6, 2009 at 7:51 pm
Thirty five comments is a good thing, right? didja read Jonathan Webber’s story on the Story Mill project on New West?
Edra Blixeth and crew destroy a mobile home park full of very affordable housing, sell big new urbanist dreams, then disappear.
less mundane than snow removal
January 6, 2009 at 11:00 pm
The county does a great job out here. Of course, the county road is a half mile away.
January 7, 2009 at 8:12 am
hey jhwygirl – thanks for writing this!! generating discussion is a good thang…it reflects good journalism when people are responsive…
January 7, 2009 at 8:33 am
Not to belabor this, but I just wanted to respond to Wulfgar’s question: “Matthew, I ask: where would that plow have removed the snow to?”
I grew up in Wisconsin, where there are more people and more snow than we get in the Missoula area. In Wisco, the plows simply plow the snow from the streets over to the curbs/grass/sidewalks, etc. At that point, the homeowners/ranters/businesses take over, removing the snow from sidewalks (if needed) and digging out the bottom of your driveway (if needed).
The important thing for the snow-plow crews to do (in my mind) is to remove all the snow from the streets. That’s important for over-all safety of drivers, bikers, walkers and also for emergency vehicles in case of fire or what-not.
Goof the grader oper-aider and others had a good idea with alternative street parking for snow routes or during snow emergency’s…those of are options that are also used in some of the move heavily populated areas of Wisconsin and Missoula should give this some consideration.
I never saw berms in the middle of the street until I moved to Missoula. Berms might be the only option when you get a four foot dumping (like in Dec 1996), but clearly this year we’ve basically had a few minor snowstorms, in the Missoula Valley at least.
When I left my folks’ home in Wisconsin last week the pile of snow at the curbs in their neighborhood was easily 7 feet high…but the roadways were completely clear, passable and most importantly, safe.
January 7, 2009 at 9:21 am
They also use salt in Wisconsin, but maybe that’s just Milwaukee.
January 7, 2009 at 3:40 pm
One additional thought came up regarding all this today while driving home on my lunch hour.
The snow pack left on the roads may lead to a quicker decomposition of the road surface. I noticed some rather large new potholes in the brand new pavement (new in August) on N. Orange St.
I wonder if it is possible that saving money on plowing could lead to extra cost in street repairs later? You know–due to all the cracks and potholes from the ice and water penetration.
Add this to JC’s social costs outlined above and it makes one wonder why we would not want to do a good job with snow removal.
My grandmother used to have a phrase–”pound wise/penny foolish”–I don’t know?
January 8, 2009 at 8:37 am
Dear jhywgirl, who says “I’m never writing about snow plowing again,” DriveFastTakeChances just initiated the next discussion for you: pothole season is fast approaching.
Happy New Year all.
January 8, 2009 at 9:10 am
Yes – dear Ed is the pothole MAN! Your herculean efforts, should I reveal, might make you Mayor material, Ed.
:-)