The Lesser of Two Evils? « 4&20 blackbirds

The Lesser of Two Evils?

August 4, 2009 in Healthcare, Montana

bureaucrat

by JC

Sometimes a picture–or an editorial cartoon–is worth a thousand words. Or more.

49 Replies

goof houlihan

August 4, 2009 at 6:09 pm

My insurance has always done me right. The government, otoh, wanted to ship me off to VietNam.

Reply
Steve W

August 4, 2009 at 6:24 pm

but they didn’t?

Reply
goof houlihan

August 4, 2009 at 6:26 pm

Keepin a journal?

Reply
Steve W

August 4, 2009 at 6:29 pm

Just wondering what ‘The rest of the story” is?

You said the government wanted to ship you off. Did you go to Canada, instead?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Reply
problembear

August 4, 2009 at 8:40 pm

“My insurance has always done me right”

Well that’s great news goof. My-me-my
Is the cornerstone of righty insurance parasite apologia…

Do tell.

Reply
- goof houlihan
  
  August 4, 2009 at 10:57 pm
  
  I don’t apologize for making good choices .
  
  Reply
  - JC
    
    August 5, 2009 at 12:58 am
    
    If you did go to ‘Nam, you’ve experienced one of the best socialized, single payer health care system in the world–the VA.
    
    If you went to Canada, you’ve experienced one of the best socialized, single payer health care systems in the world–the Canadian Medicare system.
    
    Can’t go wrong, health care-wise with either decision. Win-win. No apologies needed.
    
    Reply
    - goof houlihan
      
      August 5, 2009 at 6:47 am
      
      Like I said, leave that chapter out of your journal. Sorry I mentioned it. But if I had to choose between Washington DC and my local insurance provider, I’d pick my insurance provider ever single time.
      
      Reply
      - Jim Lang
        
        August 5, 2009 at 12:07 pm
        
        Your ‘local insurance provider’ ??
        
        Lol, you make it sound like you have insurance from some mom-and-pop Montana small business.
        
        Do you really have a ‘local insurance provider’? Who is it? Where can I get ‘local insurance’?
      - Jim Lang
        
        August 6, 2009 at 1:56 pm
        
        Crickets… I knew it was BS.
Tobie

August 5, 2009 at 9:18 am

I agree with goof. I’ve made tough choices in my life to ensure that I am covered. But it was my choice and my sacrifices paid for my own insurance (yes problembear; me, my, mine…why should I pay for someone else?)

If you want to add cost, time, hassle…give it to the government! I’d choose my private insurance provider over a government run system any day!

(If Canada’s system is so great, why do Canadians come down to the US for health care?)

Reply
- JC
  
  August 5, 2009 at 10:36 am
  
  Yes, another ‘merican for merit-based access to health care. Only those (in your mind) who made the right choices and sacrificed get access to good health care.
  
  Well, for people like you, if we don’t get a good reform bill, I’d advocate that we take away all of your socialized (read untaxed benefits) perks, and just let you compete in your beloved free market without me and other taxpayers subsidizing your healthcare.
  
  You know Tobie, you can make all the tough choices and sacrifices you want, and sometimes the insurance industry still f*cks you over. Fortunately, the government started picking up the slack with Medicare and Medicaid. Or the insurance industry would have just let the old, the sick/injured and the poor die on the streets.
  
  Reply
  - Tobie
    
    August 5, 2009 at 3:29 pm
    
    Wow JC, you’ve got some real anger going there. Good luck with that!
    
    I’ve had health problems since I was in high school and in fact racked up over 100k in medical bills so far this year alone. Trust me: issues having to do with insurance, medicine, doctors, choice, etc. are VERY important to me. I would never claim that the current system is perfect, but I can tell you that too much government interference will not help like you think it will.
    
    The people advocating for the single-payer system aren’t even happy with the way government is handling the reform, what makes you think they way they handle anything else would go any better?
    
    Reply
    - Steve W
      
      August 5, 2009 at 3:55 pm
      
      As a person advocating for a single payer system, I assure you “the government” isn’t handling reform. The private insurance companies, the drug companies, the hospitals and the equipment manufacturers are handling reform.
      
      We the people (the government, remember?) are for single payer.
      
      The corporations are the ones screwing we the people. You may be fooling yourself. You aren’t fooling us.
      
      Reply
    - JC
      
      August 5, 2009 at 3:56 pm
      
      I’m sick and tired of the “I got mine, so screw you” attitude about access to health care. If you want to take that as anger, so be it.
      
      If it weren’t for “government interference” of public health care, members of my family would have been left to die by the insurance industry.
      
      And how would you know how single payer advocates feel about anything? You an empath?
      
      And, yes, I think that the government has done a better job of handling health care for the elderly (Medicare), the poor (Medicaid) the young (CHIP) and the VA (veterans) than the private insurance industry has.
      
      And due to the industry’s failure to provide any mechanism for most of the almost 50 million uninsured to get access to health care, I think the only alternative is for the government to step in–just like it did with all of the other health care programs it had dropped on it due to the unprofitability of the demographic.
      
      Reply
    - Tobie
      
      August 5, 2009 at 4:00 pm
      
      When you say “we” the people, you really mean “you” the people.
      
      You clearly don’t speak for me even though I’m also “the people”.
      
      Reply
      - Steve W
        
        August 5, 2009 at 4:11 pm
        
        You are a person, but you are in the minority. The majority of people like Medicare, which is a government run health care insurance program.
        
        We want it for everybody and when we get it, it will then be single payer, because the private insurance criminals can’t compete with we the people. They will be run out of business like the plantation slave owners were, like the factories that exploited child labor were, and like the asbestos mines that poisoned people were.
        
        It’s just a matter of time before we catch up with the rest of the civilized world and stop the private health insurance corporations from exploiting us.
    - Tobie
      
      August 5, 2009 at 4:25 pm
      
      Well I’m exploiting them if if it makes you feel any better…One of the checks they wrote for me was $66,000. In my situation, private insurance has done NOTHING wrong.
      
      I wonder if the majority of Americans actually feel that single-payer is the answer. I assume many people recognize that something must be done, but don’t know that government is the only option. Of course I say assume because unlike you I don’t claim to know the thoughts of all Americans!
      
      JC, I say that single payer advocates aren’t happy with the reform process not because I’m an empath, but because I can read! You guys don’t hold back much!
      
      Reply
      - JC
        
        August 5, 2009 at 5:13 pm
        
        Reform happens in Congress, which is the institution of “We the People.” Or supposedly it is. Congress is not “the government.” It is one branch of government, and it is not the branch that administrates anything. Displeasure with the reform process does not translate into displeasure of the government. Contrarily, seeing how the “reform process” is being conducted by health industry shills, leads me to want to trust the government even more.
        
        If single payer advocates’ displeasure about reform is of any importance, it is because reform is being stifled by “They the Corporations.” In effect, that which should be good for “We” has been subverted into a what is good for “They.”
        
        FWIW, I’ve never said that insurance companies haven’t paid out for health expenses, when they haven’t had the desire to deny a claim, or rescind a policy. For many of us, though, the opposite is true. We have had denied treatments and coverages, rescinded policies, denial of a policy–on and on.
Steve W

August 5, 2009 at 5:46 pm

You say that private health insurance wrote you a check for $66,000.? Do I understand you correctly?

So if that’s the case, did they write it to reimburse you for the 66,000 you already paid?

Reply
- Tobie
  
  August 6, 2009 at 2:48 pm
  
  Steve W,
  
  No they paid the hospital bill directly, before I even saw the final bill. (thank god too, because I don’t have $66k!) They took great care of me, I can say nothing bad about them.
  
  I’ve had health problems since I was young, so I’ve always stayed covered so that I wouldn’t be able to be denied coverage later. I know that private insurance isn’t perfect, but for me the sacrifices I have made allowed me to take advantage of a system that works. I also don’t think that the fact that so many American’s aren’t covered is caused mainly by Insurance Companies…a lot of businesses, large and small had to cut those benefits in order to compete globally.
  
  JC-Thanks for the lesson in how Government works, you must think I live in a box!?
  
  Anyhow, you don’t think the business that employ millions of citizens and do a lot of good have a right to be involved in the process? If we, as citizens, have a right to be a part of the discussion, they should too!
  
  Very often, the best possible decision comes from comprimise. While I don’t support a single-payer system I do think that the best answer lies somewhere in between that and what we have now!
  
  Reply
  - JC
    
    August 6, 2009 at 3:04 pm
    
    So… you’re blaming NAFTA and the WTO for our health care crisis?
    
    And you think that corporations have as much rights as citizens in the health care debate? So much for “We the People.” And their money actually speaks plenty loud for them in the form of campaign contributions. They’ve got more involvement than individual citizens do. Didn’t you watch any of Baucus’ hearings? 100% corporate.
    
    So where would you draw a good compromise?
    
    Reply
    - Tobie
      
      August 6, 2009 at 3:35 pm
      
      That is quite a jump…NAFTA and WTO? No I’m not blaming anyone. Standing around pointing fingers doesn’t accomplish change. I’m just saying to put all the blame on one piece of the pie doesn’t make any sense. Since we’re talking about health care, say I was stabbed (like that :-P): I could put pressure on the wound, maybe get it to stop bleeding…but if I’m bleeding internally, I’m still going to die! Lets look at the big picture instead, thats all I was saying.
      
      I completely believe that the businesses affected should be completely involved in the discussion. It always seems like people forget those corporations are not only made up of US citizens, but they pay taxes too. Not only that, but they have the institutional knowledge that ordinary citizens don’t.
      
      You want ideas? Well since 46% of the people who are uninsured are self employed…perhaps we can start there. Small group coverage has gone up at a faster rate, so perhaps allowing trade organizations that work with thousands or millions of independant businesses to get the same group rate as larger business would help to increase access and lower costs for business owners.
      
      Again, for emphasis: that is one small part of a larger possible solution. People need to recognize that Single-Payer won’t solve all of the world’s problems…
      
      Reply
      - problembear
        
        August 6, 2009 at 4:04 pm
        
        “…they have the institutional knowledge that ordinary citizens don’t.”
        
        they sure do have “institutional knowledge” alright tobie- like how to maximize profits by denying coverage to their clients and leave us in the lurch when we need them most.
        
        of course they are always very prompt when it comes to cashing the checks for our premiums too so i would say that is certainly some “institutional knowldedge” worth crowing about….even if they are a little slow in preapproving our doctor’s reccommended treatments…not too good at that. why? because they can get away with it….
        
        the companies you (work for) or just seem to love so much don’t just have a say in the system we have now they operate with impunity and with no regard for the safety and well-being of their clients.
        
        they are exempt from legal action even though it has been proven that by denying care they have caused thousands of people to die….and not just any people either, they have done this to their own clients who have paid them for protection that has been denied them simply for optimization of profits.
        
        that is some kind of “institutional knowledge” alright tobie.
        
        you see, i just do not believe in rewarding bad behavior….and the more you apologists let them get away with screwing the american public, the worse they will get. they are parasites and i have no pity for the health insurance industry. they dug their own grave by cheating stealing and lying long enough.
      - Tobie
        
        August 6, 2009 at 4:11 pm
        
        Problembear,
        
        Your response is short sighted and ignorant.
      - Tobie
        
        August 6, 2009 at 4:15 pm
        
        And PS, I don’t work for “those corporations”. I’m just a person who is well informed on the subject. And a person who is willing to listen/learn/educated myself.
      - JC
        
        August 6, 2009 at 9:27 pm
        
        No Tobie, no jump. You said:
        
        “a lot of businesses, large and small had to cut those benefits in order to compete globally.”
        
        Global competition was spurred on by NAFTA and the WTO. One would have hoped our country would have taken the fact that our businesses would have to cut benefits in order to compete against the foreign and multi-national corporations.
        
        But they didn’t. And so in exchange for cheap crap at Wal-Mart, we got less health and other benefits from our businesses. And it’s only going to get worse unless something is done about it.
raouwel

August 6, 2009 at 2:33 pm

Single player plan (nationalized health care). Would be the biggest mistake the U.S. has ever made. Plain and simple.

Reply
- problembear
  
  August 6, 2009 at 4:10 pm
  
  i support the single payer system raouwel, but of course there is little or no chance that single payer will be implemented. the best we can hope for apparently thanks to our congress and president who want to preserve choice is a weak version of public choice which scares the crap out of the companies you (work for) or love so much because it might make them act with some degree of integrity rather than cashing our checks and denying coverage that our doctors recommend.
  
  hang another one up there raouwel…..i think your clay pigeons are fun….
  
  Reply
- JC
  
  August 6, 2009 at 5:17 pm
  
  You realize this blog post isn’t about single payer? It’s about the disinformation about the government coming between you and your doctor.
  
  Right now, if you have health insurance, you have an insurance corporate bureaucrat coming between you and your doctor.
  
  Simple as that.
  
  Reply
  - raouwel
    
    August 6, 2009 at 5:31 pm
    
    I as well as my wife and kids have been to the doctor many times and have never had anyone in my way and would like to keep it that way. If i feel i need something i will pay for it thank you.
    
    Reply
    - JC
      
      August 6, 2009 at 6:27 pm
      
      Well lucky you. Not all of the rest of us have had such simple lives.
      
      And I sure hope you have deep pockets when you “need something” and your insurance carrier decides it would rather let you pay for it too.
      
      Reply
problembear

August 6, 2009 at 4:15 pm

clay pigeons and fat ducks…..is that all you got tobie? i do this for free. you could at least put some effort into it if you are working for the parasites……if not, i would definitely get a new hobby…

Reply
- Tobie
  
  August 6, 2009 at 4:18 pm
  
  I do this for free too. Just because my opinion is educated and different than yours, doesn’t mean i have anything to do with “them”.
  
  So you get to give your opinion, but I shouldn’t give mine?
  
  Reply
  - problembear
    
    August 6, 2009 at 4:22 pm
    
    give me all your opinions tobie. don’t hold back. here, i’ll switch to a remington 1100 – the berretta over/under’s getting a little hot.
    
    go ahead and feel free to speed up the machine…this is too easy.
    
    Reply
    - Tobie
      
      August 6, 2009 at 4:27 pm
      
      If I had a clue what you were talking about perhaps we could have intelligent communication. At this point, I might just recommend that you don’t drink so early in the day!
      
      I appreciated the opinions of JC and Steve W. They had something to say.
      
      Reply
      - problembear
        
        August 6, 2009 at 4:31 pm
        
        opinions of the right wing reform obstructionists, tobie- you guys send em on over and i will shoot them down….
        
        have a nice evening tobie. go and reload those opinions….i will be waiting.
      - Tobie
        
        August 6, 2009 at 4:34 pm
        
        Well since technically you didn’t actually shoot down my suggestion, but instead went on some conspiracy theory rant; I’ll provide some more ideas when you provide an actual response.
      - raouwel
        
        August 6, 2009 at 4:38 pm
        
        Don’t confuse the liberal with facts he just needs to feel good.
        
        P.S. how do you thing a private company could thrive in a public dominated industry. If there was a public option before long there wouldn’t be a private. Thre price for worthwhile insurance would get far to ridiculous for anyone to afford. So don’t worry your president will still try to achieve that socialized medicine for you and then we can all suffer equally.
problembear

August 6, 2009 at 4:46 pm

those aren’t ideas tobie…they are talking point clay pigeons manufactured and supplied to you parrots by the same party of no that gave us the bush years……trust the profit-makers. they know what they are doing…..let’s give them a free ride to run rough-shod over everyone.

yeah- that’s a great idea tobie.

Reply
- Tobie
  
  August 6, 2009 at 4:48 pm
  
  Actually, the insurance companies opposed that idea.
  
  But how would you know with your head burried in the sand?
  
  Reply
- problembear
  
  August 6, 2009 at 4:48 pm
  
  i am not interested in companies thriving raouwel- i am interested in people being treated fairly by companies who have proven they cannot be trusted.
  
  if they can operate with integrity and still make a buck, fine….but no more rewarding bad behavior. not on my watch.
  
  Reply
raouwel

August 6, 2009 at 5:04 pm

Oh i see so lay off all the insurance providers that the majority actually want to stay with. Watch the doctors and nurses continue to quit, and no longer go to school to become such. Hospitals get overrun with more patients and have less help.

Yeah we don’t need companies to thrive and supply more jobs. Lets just tax them to death and then we can all work for your feel good non profit organizations, and we will just continue to print money for you that would work right. Please note the sarcasm, don’t want to continue to confuse you.

As for people being treated fairly, yeah just like in canada. Sorry your to old for this procedure, you know we need to supplement the cost.

Reply
- Tobie
  
  August 6, 2009 at 5:05 pm
  
  Go raouwel, couldn’t have said it better!
  
  Reply
  - JC
    
    August 6, 2009 at 9:33 pm
    
    I can say it better.
    
    Who are we printing money for? Our profiteering financial corporations. So they can pay out huge bonuses to underperforming execs.
    
    The majority? They just want efficient, inexpensive health care delivery, whomever can provide that.
    
    Layoffs? Just like GM, Ford and Chrysler, if your business model is outdated, you’re going to lay off a lot of workers until you come up with a business plan that works. Just like any other business.
    
    Reply
- problembear
  
  August 6, 2009 at 5:55 pm
  
  if a company has to lie cheat and steal to thrive it should not thrive. these companies have had a blank check from congress to do as they please to us thanks to their lobbyists. they have taken full advantage during the bush years by killing their clients, leaving us with bills that bankrupt us and forclose our homes in a chase to the bottom to see who could make the most money by cheating and stealing and lying…
  
  it is time to stop rewarding bad behavior.
  
  americans didn’t elect mccain in part because obama promised he would clean up this mess of parasites. we intend to help him do just that.
  
  as i said. if companies want to run their businesses with integrity they are free to participate in the health care system and you and your family can choose whomever you want to cover you.
  
  but i will not permit anyone to say the system does not need fixing and to “just trust the health care companies.” without an argument. ain’t gonna happen here anyway.
  
  Reply
- Steve W
  
  August 6, 2009 at 9:34 pm
  
  Doctors and Nurses support single payer. They support reform. They disagree with your position, raouwel.
  
  Why not ask them? i do. And they tell me the insurance industry is sucking the life out of them and out of us.
  ,
  
  Reply
- Jim Lang
  
  August 7, 2009 at 10:23 am
  
  You are suffering a real disconnect from reality. Trying to refute your arguments would be equivalent of trying to prove to someone that there is no Easter Bunny.
  
  Reply
  - Tobie
    
    August 7, 2009 at 11:19 am
    
    Jim,
    
    Curious as to who that comment is directed at?
    
    Reply

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The Lesser of Two Evils?

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