Repeal Now Looms Even Larger
by lizard
The will of the voter? So 7 years ago, they say, as SB423 sputters tonight, leaving repeal the only actionable option left.
So after NO action in 2005, 2007, and 2009, the fear-mongering reactionaries in Helena are going to try to kill the will of the voters, spit in the faces of patients who benefit from medicinal pot, destroy jobs and taxable revenue, and simultaneously make legal drug dealers (pharmaceutical companies) and black market dealers very happy.
After wading through the raging commentary around this issue, I think I’ve been able to identify the major mistake some proponents of medicinal marijuana made to cause this fear-based backlash: they assumed voter support and the election of Obama signaled a “green” light to establish an industry that would grow and flourish as easily as the plants this industry cultivates.
So they made BIG mistakes, like–gasp!–advertising in newspapers and on billboards. And they had the audacity to create actual storefronts, some with windows. Even worse, they made profit. It’s all very disturbing behavior. I mean, how dare these businesses act like businesses.
I mentioned illegal drug dealers being happy with the prospect of repeal, and maybe some of you scratched your heads. Well, as an active consumer of black market marijuana, I can tell you prices have come down because medicinal supply combined with a shift in demand from illegal users to legal cardholders dropped the price of an eighth of an ounce $5-$10. Forcing everyone back to the black market will probably see that trend dissolve.
It’s my humble opinion that bad PR generated by a few bad apples in the MM community has resulted in sensationalist-to-survive newspapers like the Missoulian jumping on the anti-medicinal marijuana bandwagon. In that vein, Jason Christ has been a disaster for the budding MM industry, and a godsend to the Missoulian. It’s like every time this train-wreck screws up, a Devlin grabs her pitchfork.
So what happens next? And what will Brian do if repeal awaits his ink? Is he willing to add more pain to the state’s fiscal woes, more pain to patients who need their medicine, and give a big gift to Big Pharma and black market dope dealers?
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March 30, 2011 at 10:22 pm
If, and I say IF it get’s out of the Senate the Good Guv will sign it.
But – I expect it on the ballot again, and if it’s done right this time, with proper regulation, I’ll vote for it again.
March 30, 2011 at 11:03 pm
Actually, I wouldn’t expect the governor to sign it. The idea of repealing a citizen initative with a legislative vote is… scary. It is sure to get challenged legally and I am fairly sure the gov would veto it on those grounds.
I find it truly sad that our elected officials were incapable of coming up with a common sense, reasonable set of rules and regulations but I am not all that surprised.
March 31, 2011 at 3:48 pm
Gotta disagree on this one, bud. I can find no ruling or statute that states that the legislature *can’t* overturn a citizen’s initiative. It sucks, hardcore, but it doesn’t appear to be illegal.
As for Schweitzer, if it passes, I agree that he will sign it. He has gone to the well of his folksy “the people have spoken” far too many times in order to support both sides of an issue for me to think he won’t do so here. He’ll blame the Republican legislature for political points, and talk more about importing Canadian pharmaceuticals (something he’s done nothing about in 7 years), but he’ll sign it. I hope to be proven wrong.
March 31, 2011 at 5:54 pm
I am not sure one way or the other whether is it “legal” or not. It has never been done before. What I do know, is that there are at least three groups ready to file if and when it gets voted on. What the Montana Supreme Court will do is anyone’s guess – they seem to make some “interesting” decisions at times.
I hope you are wrong too, but I guess we will see if they pass it.
March 31, 2011 at 7:38 pm
What do you think he could have done about Canadain pharmaceuticals? Except shut up when asked by Obama and Baucus to get on the HCR train?
March 30, 2011 at 11:04 pm
I do blame Jason Christ and all healthy people who looked at it as legalization. And I also think the Gov will sign it.
And without the vote of Larry Jent, D, Bozeman, it wouldn’t get out of the senate. he’s crossing party lines to overturn the expressed will of the voters. We need an R to cross over and respect the election. I’ve got nobody.
Way to go, Larry, et al, making criminals of sick people.
You’re gonna make a lot of people puke. Literally.
March 31, 2011 at 6:25 pm
Good to point out, mr benson – Jent is complicit.
And he’s a Democrat.
I believe there is one other option that can be taken – and I’d hope the Governor would consider it before signing that shitty anti-populist anti-voter bill. There is a law – and some agency wrote ARM for it, but all of those were essentially geared towards regulating and enforcing the card holder – the user – the person with the medical need. There is very little rule and no active enforcement program for the seller.
Which is really kind of backwards.
Some agency needs to write real rules that they intend to enforce that regulate the seller. Is there a dry equivalent defined? Because there’s some limit in the law to 6 plants per person being cared for. What about the food stuff? Is there someone looking at concentration?
The current situation has left the cops with only the law…it puts them between their federal funding (which I don’t think the MTGOP has cut yet) and federal law and a law that needs better rules. Real rules.
As for the statistics stuff, I got curious today what the rate of chronic pain is in a population – well, saying it is 15% would be low. So I multiplied that by the population of the state
That’s 146,000 with chronic pain in the state. 15%.
So we have something like 28,000 medical marijuana cards?
20% of a conservative estimate of an estimated 15% of the population suffering from chronic pain have medical marijuana cards.
A state filled with miners and loggers and ranchers and asbestos and cancer victims?
Jent and everyone else that voted to kill medical marijuana and turn it into something it shouldn’t be based on false assumptions and bad actors are jackasses.
They’ll vote to mine with cyanide and leave those guys with less regulation?
Jackasses.
March 31, 2011 at 6:55 pm
i hear there will be leather strips available at #MTgop party headquarters in august for those who must bite down on something to help their pain….
for all those seniors who cannot get MJ for Glaucoma MTgop suggests squinting a lot.
with these numbskulls blowing the opportunity to reform the existing laws, i see big possibilities in a new state-wide medical marijuana citizens initiative to drive the young people to the polls in 2012. don’t you?
meanwhile, the tea party just gets older and older……
tick, tick, tick,……..time heals all.
March 31, 2011 at 9:03 pm
Some of the loyal prohibitionists who testified at every hearing suggested that there would, after repeal, still be kind-hearted individuals who would risk their freedom to supply legitimately ill people with their necessary medicine.
We all knew that regardless of the outcome of this legislative session, SOMEONE, whether it was us or the Safe Community Safe Kids bitches… ooops, I meant ladies. So, this is not a shock to us although it is still shocking that the GOP’s arrogance was so effective. I’m on the verge of leaving politics, blogging, etc to go live alone in a cave.
I do see great possibilities for mobilizing the youth vote- as well as the patient and pothead vote- while the SCSK ladies are a vocal few, bringing the very same people to testify at every hearing- there are THOUSANDS more marijuana smokers- whether they are recreational users or medical- who were previously uninvolved politically. It will be CHALLENGING for us, however; even in light of this legislative session. I’m suggesting voter registration drives at every opportunity. At one time, not so long ago, I hated such drives, knowing that a majority of new voters would lean liberal- now though, I don’t care. We need new blood, regardless of their political leanings.
March 31, 2011 at 10:07 pm
Most physician office visits are due to pain of some sort. The less government, more freedom party’s plan to forcibly interfere in a doctor patient relationship- dictating the frequency of visits as well as expensive tests required is pretty ridiculous. I too think that the number of cardholders could legitimately be much higher- I also agree that there are plenty of healthy people who don’t actually need to use medical marijuana, but the way I look at it is that as long as they aren’t infringing upon anyone else’s rights, it is none of my business what they do in their own homes.
The biggest problem with the GOP as far as producing thoughtful legislation is their refusal to consult with anyone involved in the industry- they don’t understand what growing marijuana entails and they have very unrealistic expectations and projections as far as volume, profit, etc. I understand they aren’t experts, but regulating an industry certainly requires a certain level of understanding of the industry- Essmann seemed to pick 2000 as an arbitrary number that he envisioned being our limit. Factual evidence supporting his talking points doesn’t exist.
March 31, 2011 at 1:30 am
“. . . So they made BIG mistakes, like–gasp!–advertising in newspapers and on billboards”
No, Lizard, it was a lot of healthy marijuana users who went against “the will of the peoople” by abusing the intent of the initiative and pissing off a lot of voters and legislators who supported it by treating this as a way to legalize pot for recreational purposes.
A sound majority of the public wanted to help the very small number of people with legitimate medical needs who desperatly need marijuana as a medical treatment. That was the will of the people not a thriving pot industry in the state to be abused by every Jason Christ wanna be.
Shouts of “the will of the people” by politicians, activists, MM growers and bloggers while defending the growing 28,000+ MM card carriers, thousands of caregivers and countless tacky MM shops popping up throughout the state to serve a very small number of people who legitimatly need MM didn’t fool anyone and only added to the growing distrust of what this initiative became.
Yes, the legislature did a poor job handling this and should be criticized, but a lot of blame also lays at the feet of users who twisted this initiative into something the majority of voters oppose.
Don’t assume a new initiative will pass in the future. Many voters who supported the frst initiative have a “Fool me once, shame on you……” attitude and are going to be very suspicious of any new proposal brought to a state wide vote.
March 31, 2011 at 5:46 am
if you think you have the numbers to pass a citizen initiative repealing MM, then go for it. get the signatures, get it on the ballot, and let’s see what the people of this state think.
instead all these people you cite, pogo, seem to be supporting tea party culture warrior zealots (and one POS democrat) in their bid to nullify a citizen initiative because too many “healthy users” are allegedly abusing the system.
lots of people abuse the regulations and laws surrounding alcohol by drunk driving and providing minors with booze. do you support prohibition of alcohol?
no, of course you don’t.
pogo, go tell your friends how happy repeal will make black market drug dealers, because apparently finding a compassionate compromise with sane reform isn’t going to happen this session, not with our current batch of idiots rampaging their extremist agenda in Helena.
after watching the madness of our state legislature, lots of people are thinking “this isn’t what i voted for.”
March 31, 2011 at 9:06 am
Every one of those 28,000 cardholders will never again take opioids for pain. Think marketshare. There is no medical marijuana monopoly, no Blue Cross coverage, and no professional lobbyists paying for campaigns in either major party. This is precisely the kind of uncontrolled business behavior that will get you a new law everytime. Nobody asked for government insured bonds, or government grants or loans. These business don’t need government to thrive. It’s not just MM. Both parties hate small business, especially ones showing robust growth without government assistance. Think marketshare and control.
March 31, 2011 at 9:59 am
Smoke ‘em while ya got ‘em.
March 31, 2011 at 10:27 am
Drug dealers without a doubt will benefit most from a repeal of Montana’s medical marijuana law. Some who have relocated to states without medicinal use laws after local prices plummeted may even consider moving back here unfortunately. Regardless of the legality of marijuana, it was always available in the past and it always will be. A repeal will simply ensure that the money associated with marijuana will all be smuggled in backpacks to northern California, however; instead of contributing to our state’s economy.
The same party campaigning on a platform of smaller government and more individual liberties produced a regulatory bill (sb 423) proposing the agency regulating public utilities of all things, also regulate medical marijuana. The government would essentially control the supply, demand and access to the substance while forcing patients undergo frequent and expensive medical examinations as well as tests exposing them to unnecessary radiation. Essmann’s legislation seemed to choose an entirely arbitrary number to cap patients at 2000. Leadership has chosen to completely ignore all factual science-based evidence in determining regulation via a controlling nanny state. Smaller government, sure. It appears the GOP is advocating marijuana socialism.
Comments like those from pogo possum are frustrating. It never ceases to amaze me that America’s sheep are so comforted by the FDA’s stamp of approval. The FDA, the same agency responsible for giving us thalidomide, Phen-fen, Vioxx, you name it. NEVER has anyone fatally overdosed on marijuana, the same claim cannot be made for even water. All substances have risks, but those associated with cannabis are far lower than any over-the-counter medication available today, let alone prescription drugs.
Anyone who claims that Montana’s marijuana law is “not what Montanans voted for” could use the very same argument against the prohibitionists attempting to repeal the law entirely. I can’t speak for everyone, but I can guarantee a vast majority of those voting in favor of medical use of marijuana weren’t interested in prohibiting legal access. The only possible way to test the voter’s intent would be to put the issue back on the ballot, which will most likely be done by one side or the other in 2012 regardless. Realistically, Republicans should fear the issue’s placement on ballots as it will likely mobilize the angry, suffering segment of our population.
Placing a repeal bill on Schweitzer’s desk is a recipe for a 2012 election trainwreck for the GOP, but I do believe it will happen.
I believe that the governor would sign a medical cannabis reform bill, even a bad one; but I suspect he’d veto a repeal bill. I’d bet the governor is plotting how he will publicly hold the GOP accountable for the legislative lunacy on parade this session. Schweitzer is well aware that the citizens of Montana desire regulatory legislation and that this legislature’s rogue leaders do not represent the majority of our state.
The GOP is playing right into Schweitzer’s hands, if I wasn’t so passionate about this issue, I would find this all rather entertaining.
March 31, 2011 at 10:37 am
Pogo nails it again. The man behind the curtain has been outed.
And BS will sign it if he has other political aspirations.
Max out your prescriptions.
March 31, 2011 at 12:25 pm
man behind the curtain? are you drinking before noon again ingy?
March 31, 2011 at 2:00 pm
Just a little.
“the man” represents eventual total legalization.
You guys had a winning strategy with incrementalism, should’ve stayed with it.
March 31, 2011 at 3:08 pm
just to be clear, while i voted for MM in 2004, i didn’t do so rubbing my hands together thinking, this is the backdoor into legalization. i haven’t exploited this voter-initiated medical designation for cannabis by claiming chronic pain to get my card, and i’m not associated with any MM groups or caregivers.
of my friends i only know two to be cardholders, and both have legitimate medical reasons. one of them is already planning to move back to his home state of Colorado, and while he hasn’t stated this to me explicitly, i think the potential for repeal helped make up his mind to move.
and ingy, if you think repeal is going to be some kind of success for your side, think again. there are going to be lots of libertarians really pissed off at this government nullification of a citizen initiative.
March 31, 2011 at 7:08 pm
People are leaving Missoula and the state to find work. You can find dope anywhere.
March 31, 2011 at 7:36 pm
maybe he doesn’t like the idea of transitioning back to being a criminal.
March 31, 2011 at 3:51 pm
I suggest that if anyone really values MM, and the will of Montana voters, that this shouldn’t be about *winning* or success at all. It should be about doing what’s right for people.
March 31, 2011 at 7:42 pm
if it was *just* about MM, then yes, it shouldn’t be about “winning”, but for too many, it’s a culture war they’re fighting, meaning those fucking hippies have been getting too uppity lately and need to be taught a lesson about this perceived “mission creep”.
March 31, 2011 at 7:31 pm
“I can guarantee a vast majority of those voting in favor of medical use of marijuana weren’t interested in prohibiting legal access.”
Thank you for proving my point, Montanafesto.
Here is another social movement that managed to derail itself. You may recognize a few of the characters. It’s a good read.
March 31, 2011 at 9:11 pm
Not sure you understood my comment. By using the same logic, the “this isn’t what Montana voted for”, we also know that would apply to repeal. So, while this may indeed not be what voters wanted, neither is repeal. Regardless, we will have a chance to weigh in in 2012, whatever the outcome this session because one side or the other will put it on the ballot.
As for your link, I’m not familiar with that book or the area but one of our bloggers is from somewhere up there, maybe she will weigh in on the debate. I do not advocate communism however.
March 31, 2011 at 3:38 pm
The prison industry might also benefit. Gallatin Co. has an expensive new prison (so-called jail) with lots of extra beds. And with moribund private prisons in Shelby and Hardin, what better way to quickly recruit new long-term guests. Easy keepers.
March 31, 2011 at 3:59 pm
Gosh, not that we need to cut through the hyperbole or anything, but Gallatin county’s need for a new “prison” wasn’t based on filling it with stoners. Our over-crowding issues at the old jail were based almost completely on serving sentence for DUI, or other crimes alcohol related. Please feel free to gauge the irony of that on your own.
March 31, 2011 at 6:57 pm
“That’s 146,000 with chronic pain in the state. 15%. ”
I wouldn’t be tossing around the projection that there will be 146,000 MM card carriers and users in the state if there is any chance the MM issue goes back to a public vote jhwyGirl. A lot of people already think 28,000 is too high.
Convince voters that there are another 118,000 people waiting in the wings for a MM card and voters will bury MM for good.
March 31, 2011 at 7:38 pm
you sure like talking for other people, pogo. are they like your constituents or something?
March 31, 2011 at 8:36 pm
does anyone have any insight into the rumors that democrats may be using MM as a bargaining chip for something else?
March 31, 2011 at 9:12 pm
Not really anything more than that – and it doesn’t surprise me.
Horse-trading. Of the worse kind.
DPHHS fell in 2009 because of this horse-shit – on a promise the permanently removed funding (replaced with stimulus funds at the time) would be restored the next session (now).
Look what’s going on.
March 31, 2011 at 9:38 pm
I think they were trying to cut deals yesterday in exchange for support of rules suspension for Essmann’s SB423, but I don’t necessarily blame them for it. The GOP absolutely needed their votes but wasn’t willing to compromise on anything- and didn’t end up getting their way as a result. I’m sure blame can be placed on those in both parties, but I really cannot imagine having to endure much more time with the GOP God Squad than I already have this session- it must be torture for thinking people. I think MM has been used as a bargaining chip too many times already this session however and the legislature needs to realize this isn’t just about a substance, it is about real Montanans who suffer from legitimate illnesses and I’d appreciate legislation based on facts, not ignorant fear-mongering rhetoric.
March 31, 2011 at 9:40 pm
I will try this one again and see if the “Your Comment is awaiting moderation” yellow bar again:
It was on the 10 o’clock news last night:
“. . . In a vote earlier in the day, Essmann’s bill got bipartisan support with 37 Senators voting for it. Then when it came down to the last minute the Democrats wanted something in return for their vote.
Some of the Senate Democrats pressured Minority Leader Senator Carol Williams (D-Missoula) to use the Therapeutic Marijuana Act to get Representative Galen Hollenbaugh’s (D-Helena) bonding bill out of the Senate committee.”
http://www.kxlh.com/news/mt-medical-marijuana-reform-efforts-unclear/
March 31, 2011 at 9:42 pm
don’t know what’s going on with it goof. but i took them both out.
March 31, 2011 at 9:48 pm
I am not goof but thanks PBear. Maybe it was the link I included to the news site that caused it.
March 31, 2011 at 9:10 pm
It was on the 10 o’clock news last night:
“. . . In a vote earlier in the day, Essmann’s bill got bipartisan support with 37 Senators voting for it. Then when it came down to the last minute the Democrats wanted something in return for their vote.
Some of the Senate Democrats pressured Minority Leader Senator Carol Williams (D-Missoula) to use the Therapeutic Marijuana Act to get Representative Galen Hollenbaugh’s (D-Helena) bonding bill out of the Senate committee.”
http://www.kxlh.com/news/mt-medical-marijuana-reform-efforts-unclear/
March 31, 2011 at 9:38 pm
I got the “Your comment is awaiting moderation” yellow bar again when I tried to post. Is this just a glitch in the system jhwyGirl?
March 31, 2011 at 9:49 pm
Could be you exceed a given amount of links in your comments in one posting.
April 1, 2011 at 1:13 pm
So what happened? Did the Senate vote to Repeal? I haven’t been able to find anything on this yet.
April 1, 2011 at 1:19 pm
nevermind, I found it –
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/31/962147/-Montana-Medical-Marijuana-Repeal-Clears-Senate
April 1, 2011 at 2:55 pm
yep, repeal now waits for the Brian, and it’s looking doubtful he’s going to spend the political capital to veto this with the budget battle heating up.
i hope pogo and friends are satisfied with the emotional/physical pain legitimate patients will now experience when they become criminals on july 1st, and the fiscal pain of job loss, revenue loss, empty commercial space, not to mention the added cost of enforcement.
the cops don’t really have to expend much energy investigating, since the information is out there about who has cards. all they have to do is get a big net out, and go scooping up the newly minted criminals with their dangerous drugs.
let’s fill up the jails and prisons now. hell, this jury made sure to send a strong message to those dangerous junkies that 3 grams of pot means facing a maximum penalty of life in prison and a 50,000 dollar fine.
is that good enough for you pogo? will that teach those stoners the lesson you hoped it would? will your friends sleep better at night knowing they’ve supported overturning a voter-initiative because stoners were exploiting an industry our worthless legislators couldn’t figure out how to properly regulate after SEVEN FUCKING YEARS?
speaking of legislators, it sounds like both democrats and republicans were more interested in playing stupid games with each other than finding a common sense solution.
so this goes to both sides of the isle: you all should be ashamed of yourselves.
and this goes to the republicans: where are the fucking jobs, assholes?
April 1, 2011 at 6:12 pm
If you think I have advocated total repeal of the MM law Lizard then you haven’t been paying attention to my full comments.
I voted for legalized MM and still support it for people with serious medical conditions who have legitimate needs for its medicinal benefits. I have stated this on 4&20 several times. I have also said the legislature (both Rs and Ds) did not handle this properly.
But I have also said repeatedly that a major reason a majority of surveyed voters said they favored eliminating MM and a key reason it was overturned by the legislature was because healthy people abused the intent of the initiative and are responsible for transforming it into something a majority of voters strongly dislike.
.
April 1, 2011 at 8:37 pm
and if you think people are pissed off because of “people like me”, which you lobbed at me in an earlier thread, then you haven’t been paying attention to my full comments.
what survey are you referring to? i would appreciate a link. but if it’s the poll in the story the Missoulian had their manipulative headline about, don’t bother. that poll included only landlines, which in this cellphone world, kind of limits the pool of respondents.
something i’d like to point out, though. you talk about the “healthy” people who are abusing the system. how would you or anyone know who is “healthy” and who is not? that’s a totally unsubstantiated perception people have, and unless folks have direct access to medical records, or intimate knowledge about their friends and family, no one can say with any certainty who is a “healthy” abuser of MM and who is not.
too much of this argument has been based on these kinds of misperceptions, which is why i’ve been so critical about the depiction of MM in the Missoulian. how many positive stories has the Missoulian featured since this issue flamed up? you have stated i’m just trying to find someone to blame, but if you really think that, then i think you greatly underestimate the power some media have to shape people’s opinions.
the two people i know who have cards are both young men who probably look healthy to any casual observer. and now, if this goes through, they’ll be criminals.
April 1, 2011 at 8:53 pm
Ever since Wulfgar posted this –
“Gotta disagree on this one, bud. I can find no ruling or statute that states that the legislature *can’t* overturn a citizen’s initiative. It sucks, hardcore, but it doesn’t appear to be illegal. ”
something has been tickling the back of my mind but I couldn’t put my finger on it. I remember what it was today.
As most of the people who post here knows, I was in a fight for over 2 years with our local City Government. This fight included two attempts to recall our mayor (the same mayor that had me arrested during this fiasco). The first recall effort was declared invalid because – in the opinion of District Judge Tucker, the petition was not properly handled. The Second Recall effort was fought in court over a period of months with Judge Tucker, piece by piece, wittling it down until he finally declared it invalid on the grounds that – even though there was a prima facia reason to proceed with recall on two of the items listed on the petition, since the other two items on the petition were declared – by him – to be insufficient, therefore the entire recall (in his opinion based on a ruling in Florida – a state which has a vastly different recall law than ours) was invalid.
This is germane because, in one of his decisions, he expressed regret in invalidating the recall based on the decision made at the Supreme Court level on the recall case that was seen by them. I wish I could quote the section of the Supreme Court decision he used (I can’t find my file on the recall right now), but, in essence, the “decision” by the Supreme Court stated that a citizen initiative has precedence over the legislature and should be treated with the utmost concern and weight.
If I am remembering that decision correctly, there may very well be grounds to make a challenge to the Legislature’s ability to repeal a citizen initiative. The Legislature can certainly regulate or modify one, but outright repeal? I would be interested in seeing that case actually go before the Supreme Court and I would be even more interested in how the decide on this situation based on what was written about recall.
April 25, 2011 at 5:35 pm
nice post about medical marijuana in montana by a republican
http://bit.ly/gWMMkk