guess who is behind the ground zero mosque idea?

by problembear

give up?    an unholy alliance between republicans, fox, and the saudis.

that’s who.

wag the dog republican style. that’s the way to regain power. spend a little cash to cause a controversy. report on it with your own personal news service. wait for the stupid democrats to start fighting each other over it, then cash in on tea baggers hurling racist ignorant garbage at the president…..

that’s how.


  1. Big Swede

    Rove, you evil bastard.

  2. maybe soon, the term crazy as a fox will take on a whole new meaning, bs.

    • Big Swede

      Right pb.

      Now if only we could get a Rusty Shackleford photoshop putting a Fox News logo on the tails of the 9/11 planes.

      • you better duck and hide bs. there is more to come out about the traitors in the far right who are conspiring with our enemies to create controversy in this country.

        people have enough problems trying to get our economy back on track without saudi collaborators in the far right and a saudi backed fox news fomenting more anger in this country.

        the GOP appears to be allowing itself to be a shameless tool of saudi influenced controversy.

  3. Lizard

    begin rant

    i’ve been reading the slew of anti-islam letters to the editor that have been flaring up like herpes at the missoulian recently, and it seems the national propaganda is percolating as intended to all the little corners of this country. so much so that the controversial poll results about americans believing obama is a muslim shocked the researchers and almost appeared to embarrass mainstream news sources. pundits had to repeat, over and over, that obama is a christian, and i swear i saw glimpses of their unspoken acknowledgment of how complicit they know they are in this particular stark example of american brainwashing.

    speaking of the media, it just so happens that equal to the anti-islam letters are the letters supporting fox news after marty essen’s little crusade to switch channels ran a few weeks ago. hell, even natelson felt the need to chime in. (i threw in a few shots for the fun of it because natelson is a jackass off to his think tank bunker where he’ll fit in swell with all the other assholes who get paid to create and distribute propaganda)

    there’s an obvious connection with all these islam bashing letters (and comments) and fox cheerleading letters: the success of corporate propaganda has killed journalism, and part of that success is people in this country are making the choice to believe bullshit instead of challenging themselves by seeking out and considering alternative viewpoints.

    i think it’s way past time to just face the unsettling reality that america is a delusional fantasy land now, with the majority of people coalescing around fictions and flat out lies. apparently even our own mayor is susceptible, trying to counter the fact that the misleadingly labeled “double dip” recession is and will affect this missoula. i don’t necessarily fault him for trying to be optimistic here at home, but to go shill on national news pisses me off.

    what our good mayor is shilling against is itself a lie: the idea of a “double-dip recession” is complete crap, because it requires us to believe another fiction peddled to us by all the corporate “news” channels: that “we” experienced a “recovery.”

    wall street experienced the recovery, and we got trickled down corporate swill sold to us as news of a recovery. it doesn’t seem to matter how many better informed people try to explain why recovery is not and will not occur under present conditions because we don’t have the loudest megaphones. double dip can’t happen if we never left the economic morass in the first place.

    i think part of this lunacy is generational. baby boomers want to preserve their generational betterment (quickly eroding beneath their feet) while their progeny just want to preserve their gadgetry. but now that we’re starting to get a taste of what other cultures have experienced at the hands of our vulgar capitalists, all i see in this country is various forms of tantrum.

    it makes me want to say fucking grow up and face reality people. decades of greedy compromises and little betrayals have allowed the old robber barons to get back in the saddle, and now they control the levers of government so efficiently, no single elected politician is capable of doing anything that actually serves this nation’s broader constituencies.

    islam is not the enemy. fox news is not news. recovery has only benefited the wealthy. and there is more pain to come.

    /end rant.

    • mr benson

      Okay, I do read rants after all. I respect the Mayor of Missoula and good for him to appear and also to declare the economy as his number one priority.

      and, for me, the shrill insistence that the President is a Christian is laughable. A half century ago, here’s what a different president, a veteran, who fought for his country, had to say about the subject:

      “I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute–where no Catholic prelate would tell the President (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishoners for whom to vote–where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference–and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the President who might appoint him or the people who might elect him.

      I believe in an America that is officially neither Catholic, Protestant nor Jewish–where no public official either requests or accepts instructions on public policy from the Pope, the National Council of Churches or any other ecclesiastical source–where no religious body seeks to impose its will directly or indirectly upon the general populace or the public acts of its officials–and where religious liberty is so indivisible that an act against one church is treated as an act against all. ”

      How bravely that was spoken, and no wonder because it was from a man who had found those profiles in courage in men who stood up. His words, not long after the Knights of Columbus had ramrodded “under God” into the Pledge of Allegiance, came at a time when separation of church and state was a real issue, not some dreamed up fever of a poll taker or liberals hastening to express their contempt for americans.

      Too bad our President won’t use Kennedy’s words or at least find his own and say it clearly, as he once did when he said “I’m running for senator, not for Pope”.

  4. Has anyone seen the design of the proposed building? It’s really cool. You can view it at this link.

      • Ouch! Being called a tool by a tool stings!

        Let’s see now, the Democrats want to get together and talk about the latest soup du jour, the proposed mosque, and propound pompously on their pious belief in tolerance.

        The issue … let’s see -it absorbs most media attention … let’s see, Obama chimed in right around the time that Gibbs trashed lefties… let’s see, it allows Democrats to appear to be different than Republicans on a minor matter, which is then projected on the larger perception centers … let’s see … we’re all about that and not about Iraq or AfPak or Guantanamo or torture or spying …

        You’re right, JWhatever … commenting on the wedge nature of this issue is just wrong. I am stupid, and you are smart.

        • Aww…Mark Troll Tool Tokarski is trying to make baby jhwygirl cry.

          Instead, jhwygirl laughs.

          Did you read problembear’s post?

          I didn’t see one bit on the subject of tolerance or any of the crap you bring up.

          Go write that kind of stuff up at your place if that’s what you want to talk about. I’m sure someone might read it.

        • You are not very good at insults. Study Budge – he’s the best. But it takes some depth insight and wit, and frankly Jwhatevergirl …

          Anyway, you’re a good Democrat, tolerant and all of that. Why don’t you just ban me? Isn’t that the way of the “other” party? Isn’t that the mindset?

        • PS: It’s a “wedge” issue, an attention sink. It doesn’t matter a whit. It should not be posted on nor pondered about. It’s meant as a diversion, to prevent your mind from wandering into reality. Can you grasp that notion?

          As Dorothy Parker might say, it is an issue that should not be set aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force. (She was witty.)

  5. mr benson

    I don’t read rants. I also think the location of the sharia (sic–unsure of spelling here) law teaching center is a bit of a red herring. It’s not that I don’t want it next to the trade center; I don’t want it at all.

    Let me say it this way; it is okay to be intolerant of the intolerant. I am intolerant of the Westboro Baptists in the same way as I am intolerant of their counterparts in Islam.

    That is the analogy we must make. We should protest the Westboro baptists and we should protest their islamic counterparts. Ours is a country of enlightenment, not superstition; our ethic is one of respect for individual rights and righteousness. Authoritarian religion which advocates the violation and disrespect of individual rights is unwelcome here.

    • Lizard

      equal opportunity intolerance, eh. how very enlightened of you, mr. benson.

      i have to admit when you state that we are a country of enlightenment, i had to chuckle. you are part of the fantasy.

      we are a country built on theft and exploitation. it was people who claimed to be enlightened who articulated their enlightened justification for genocidal destruction of those unenlightened heathens who had the misfortune of getting in the way of our manifest destiny.

      and it was supposedly enlightened individuals who bought and sold african slaves.

      and now americans are so brainwashed they believe obama is an evil muslim socialist.

      yeah, really enlightened are we.

      • mr benson

        Mr Hitchens says it in his Labor Day column, “Am I in favor of the untrammeled “free exercise of religion”? No, I am not.”

        And he lays out why pretty well, too.

        Those who would hide behind our tolerance while preaching violence and intolerance should be exposed and not tolerated.

    • Lizard

      oh, and what evidence do you have this proposed mosque would be the equivalent of westboro baptists?

      • mr benson

        Liz, your “hate america first” agenda is clear. No need to continue to beat us over the head with it. You had this country, and have nothing but contempt for the people in it.

        We all get it.

    • Ours may be a country of enlightenment, but first and foremost, we are a country of law, as established in our Constitution. When we protest against the very rights enumerated in that document, then we cease to have respect for individual rights and anything resembling righteousness. I’m certainly not telling you that your sentiments are wrong; just that the higher ethic demands better from us all.

      • Lizard

        law, huh. like obama’s assassination hit list with american citizens on it?

        or like the botched prosecution of blackwater?

        the judicial veneer that stretches over this republic is getting mighty thin these days. fraud and extortion and torture and murder go unpunished at the highest levels while we fill the prisons with poor drug offenders.

        we are not a nation of laws if those laws are not equitably enforced.

        • Lizard, there’s a pretty significant difference between the law and justice. Your comment reminds me of Jimmy Swaggart running across the stage holding a Bible up to the sky and screaming “If one word in this book isn’t true then throw the whole thing out!” To which I can only respond, no thank you.

          • Lizard

            yes wulfgar, if laws are enforced equitably, that creates justice. but laws are not enforced equitably, so not everyone gets justice. i’m sure you would agree with that.

            • I would agree with that, and much more. But that isn’t always the fault of the law; but rather mostly the people involved with executing it. I’m sure you would agree with that.

              If you do, then it stands as obvious that this whole “GROUND ZERO MOSQUE” campaign is absolute bullshit. The First amendment to the Constitution clearly states that no matter how icky one finds the sentiment involved, we as people either follow principle as clearly enumerated, or we follow emotion. If the latter, then our view of “justice” is no better than that of the torturer, the bigot or the Bible Thumper. The first amendment is what it is, and it is just law. Complaining that others violate other law does nothing to dissuade a patriot from defense of that very first amendment.

      • mr benson

        Wulfgar, only to the point that it interferes with those very rights. Freedom of religion can have limits, just as free speech or the right to bear arms.

        The cutting of noses and stoning to death laws of fundamental Islam, just as the Penteteuchal laws of the Old Testament, aren’t acceptable in this country because they violate, in particular, our respect for the rights of individuals.

        That IS the higher ethic, the law of “Nature’s God”; that humans possess within themselves rights and righteousness.

        • Mr. B, humans contain nothing within themselves save genetics and instruction. You said and I quote:

          I also think the location of the sharia … law teaching center is a bit of a red herring. It’s not that I don’t want it next to the trade center; I don’t want it at all.

          That would be a call for some action to stop instruction you don’t approve of. Does such instruction violate anyone else’s rights? No. It doesn’t. Does calling for such obstruction violate the rights of others? Yes, it clearly does. I understand the sentiment. But it isn’t at all what this country was founded on, or what it claims to stand for. It is okay to be intolerant of the intolerant. I have no patience for the stupid. But a line is crossed when one calls for eradication of what that one has no patience for. Tolerance doesn’t demand agreement. It just demands holding to the principle that if they don’t fuss with you, you got no reason to fuss with them. Sharia law (and you did spell it correctly) doesn’t fuss with you, unless action is taken where it does.

          The Bush doctrine is simple (not that the Quitta from Wassila would know this). Do unto them before they do unto you what you think they will do because someone retarded told them they should. That’s the most bass-ackwards thing we could ever get behind. We won’t be told what to do, but others might and we fear them so they should die? Seriously? “Defeat Sharia Law” is ridiculous on it’s face, as a slogan. It doesn’t apply to us. Constitutional law does. Support what applies and laugh at what doesn’t. That’s my view, and I’m sticking to it.

          • mr benson

            Are there limits on the guarantees in the first amendment? They are not absolute. You throw up freedom from established religion and freedom to practice as if those two freedoms are absolute. I don’t think they are. We’ve established a “ceremonial deism” in this country, which is well defended in common law, and pretty much accepted. Look at the furor over “the President’s a Muslim” where he is insisting he’s a Christian. I liked his answer better, “I’m running for Senate, not for Pope” but that’s unacceptable in this country because of our insistence on some established religion.

            Can you engage in human sacrifice and claim religious exemption? No. Nor rape, although pederasty seemed fairly exempt until lately, nor other acts we deem criminal. Can you advocate rape, or murder, and claim religious exemption? Why?

            As for my insistence on Natural law, you and I disagree on that. You reject Jefferson’s “nature and nature’s God” as the source of inherent rights? I don’t. Where do human rights come from? From where do we get a sense of right and wrong? What’s Jefferson’s, and therefore America’s answer to that question?

  6. Rovian politics pollutes our national discourse, alienates good minded voters of all.political parties and encourages treasonous behavior to regain GOP power in washington.

    God help this country if we are stupid enough to ignore it.

    Because karl rove, newt gingrich, fox news and the tea party are willing to lie their way to power.

    It is up to decent minded americans to stop them. Enough of these tricks and dirty lies.

    Enough is enough!

    • Lizard

      by the way, thanks for this post, pbear. no one has really discussed how ridiculous this “funding” question is with the implication of the saudi/fox connection.

      • thanks liz. i am aware that all political parties are corrupt in their own way….. but this is a particularly heinous bit of treachery that needs to be condemned by all americans as an affront to their country by a bunch of old men desperate to cling to power.

        it is time to throw all the republicans out of congress, our state legislatures and every single elected office in this land.

        i am deeply troubled by the consequences if this country continues to reward the GOP’s bad behavior in trying at every turn to see that this country fails so that they can reclaim the failed policies of reagan/bush.

        at no time in our history has it been more important for the young people of this country to come together and take their country back from these bastards.

        and while you kids are at it – you can get rid of this blue dog bastard too:

        • Lizard

          first you have to wrench minds from the dazzle of corporate media brainwashing, and that’s not easy.

          then you have to address the foundational conditioning of american exceptionalism that places this country’s ever-noble national myths above every other nation and culture on the planet. as mr. benson showed me, doing so can result in derision, in this instance by ascribing hate to my examples of the historical hypocrisies that undermine claims of moral national superiority.

          it’s not hateful to acknowledge the brutal deviations this country has experienced when it comes to respecting individual rights.

          and it’s not hateful to point out that this country represented opportunity for so many immigrating people around the world because they had the opportunity to stake claims to actual land. and that opportunity only existed because the previous tenants were systematically killed, assimilated, or pushed to less desirable areas of the new world.

          but if you can get folks past the initial knee-jerk reaction of re-contextualizing their national myths to include the losers of the mainly anglo-european western expansion across the new world, then maybe you’ve got a shot at shifting their fear-based support of the war on terror and creating opposition to the next front opening up in iran.

          • one thing at a time liz…..

            i can chew a lot but that’s a mouthful. it should be pretty easy to see that the right is going too far and that people need to realize that they are willing to do anything to this country in order to regain power.

            that should be enough for decent minded folks to turn away from their treachery.

            i like to deal with now. and right now we must deal with the clear and present danger of an out of control right wing willing to hand the keys to our country to foreign enemies and corporations in order to regain control.

            the bush/saudi relationship is still very much a clear and present danger to all of us. and the right wing in this country is more than willing to forsake america in order to get what they want. we must deal with this first.

            • i do realize of course that there are reasonable republicans out there. but i consider any who aquiesce and defer to the treasonous and nation-destroying tactics of the rovian-fox news- tea bagger far right to be just as guilty by association. and of course any blue dog democrats who allow these traitors to cower them.

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