hog wash served up with a side of error…

by problembear

http://billingsgazette.com/news/opinion/editorial/gazette-opinion/article_9f50f1bc-da5a-11df-b173-001cc4c03286.html

bon appetit

to cleanse the pallet the chef suggests ……

http://www.youtube.com/v/aqeDaN0OSCw?hl=en&fs=1%22%3E%3C/param%3E%3Cparam

the billings gazette editorial kinda makes me wonder just how much the white shirts know about how tough it is out there for montana’s working poor. not very much if you read their vapid endorsement of an industry which is bleeding people dry out there. not much at all…….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzO7lFAiF4Q&feature=related

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  1. Interesting indeed … questions to ask: Is there an advertising relationship there? If so, the Gazette should have recused itself.

    And then there is Mr. Kemmick himself endorsing the Gazette opinion prior to the official Gazette opinion. This much I can say with 95% certainty: Mr. Kemmick arrives at his opinion on his own, and no pressure is exerted over him to conform to those above him.

    But here is the key to understanding journalism: It is pretty well understood that Mr. Kemmick, like all mainstream journalists, is housebroken. You won’t find potty on the carpet at the Gazette.

  2. Jim Lang

    Are pawn shops next? It would be nice if you had more time to get your stuff back but the interest rates are comparable to payday lenders. And they have saved me a few times.

    • pawn shops are not affected by this initiative. the whole diabolical thing about payday lenders is the vicious cycle the working poor get in with a 300 dollar loan that keeps coming due every two weeks and costing 45 – 60 bucks every two weeks.

      studies have shown that the average low wage worker who goes in and gets one of these ends up with 8 paydays being dinged for that 45 to 60 each time. adds up to a profit of 360 to 480 bucks on a single loan of 300 for a lousy four months.

      and once that payday lender has his hooks in your average bi-weekly take home of 578.00 for a person making 8.50 it is pretty hard to catch up and repay that 660 to 780 snowballing debt.

      • Jim Lang

        “and once that payday lender has his hooks in your average bi-weekly take home of 578.00 for a person making 8.50 it is pretty hard to catch up and repay that 660 to 780 snowballing debt.”

        Your assertions don’t seem to be consistent with the law as cited by the gazette.

        “Loans can’t exceed 25 percent of the borrower’s verifiable monthly take-home income, can’t exceed $300 in any case and can’t be made for a term longer than one month. The loan fee can’t exceed 25 percent of the loan. Thus a $300 loan with a $75 fee is the maximum allowed by law.

        Montana law also limits payday loans to one per person. To get the cash, the borrow writes the lender a postdated check that will be cashed on that date not more than a month in the future. By law, a borrower isn’t allowed to take out a second payday loan with any lender until the first one is actually paid off.”

        Are they wrong on the facts?

        • the law stipulates the following jim:

          1-Montana Code Annotated 31-1-722 (25% interest on a 14-day loan); 2-Montana Code Annotated 31-1-817 (25% interest
          on a 30-day loan)

          i believe that the billings gazette is actually in error on several things. in fact there is a comment on that string from one of the backers of cap-the-rate which refers to some of the misconceptions the gazette is suffering from:

          “Payday lenders get the majority of their business from borrowers with 13 or more loans per year. These numbers come directly from the Division of Banking, and show that at a minimum (not taking into account borrowers with 14, 15 or more loans per year nor those who borrow from more than one lender)56% of all payday loans issued in Montana are made to borrowers severely mired in debt. So if you borrow $300 for half the year (borrow, payback, borrow, payback..), you will pay $975 just in interest payments.

          And to answer Demiurge’s question, there is no enforcement on multiple loans, it’s a meaningless provision. That’s why our friends at Rural Dynamics, who provide credit counseling services, frequently see borrowers with three, four, five or more payday loans out simultaneously from different lenders. They started taking out a loan over here to pay off that one over there and before long they have multiple loans out.

          The current law was written by the industry, so it’s no surprise it does nothing to protect consumers from these predatory practices. It’s time to Cap the Rate. 400% Is Too High, Vote FOR I-164.”

          under montana state law it is actually permissable to charge 25 per hundred per two week period under current law. most lenders charge between 45-60 for a 300 dollar loan EVERY TWO WEEKS.

          pawn shops are less than half of that jim.

          • Jim Lang

            Apparently the Gazette has the facts straight. Certainly no errors were pointed out.

            “under montana state law it is actually permissable to charge 25 per hundred per two week period under current law. most lenders charge between 45-60 for a 300 dollar loan EVERY TWO WEEKS. ”

            That isn’t true. I suggest you read the statute that you cited.

            • there, i fixed my original comment and the part of my comment that you quote. thanks for pointing that out jim.

              • Jim Lang

                Well, you’re still wrong.

                31-1-722 says the licensee may not charge a fee for each deferred deposit loan entered into with a consumer that exceeds 25% of the principal amount.

                31-1-715 says a deferred deposit loan may not have a term that exceeds 31 days.

                Where are you getting this “every two weeks” notion from? It’s wrong.

              • unless you have taken these things out jim it is hard to understand what goes on but i will try my best to describe a real actual account of one of these loans:
                when you get a payday loan, you write out a check in the amount of the loan plus the interest which the payday lender cashes in two weeks. every payday is usually two weeks so that is how they work it. so let’s say you take out a loan for 300- you write them a check for 360 which they cash on your next payday.

                usually when people are low wage it is difficult to take a hit on their paycheck that large so they take out another payday loan to cover the check. they usually go to another payday lender who makes you sign something to the effect that you do not have any payday loans out with any other lenders, which technically is true because the other lender has already cashed your check.

                go to one of these places and talk to some of the people who use them. it is common practice to take out another loan in order to afford paying the first loan. it goes on and on this way. that is how it is done. regardless of what the law says. that is why it is so harmful to people. it is a cycle of debt that is very hard to get out of if you don’t make much money. they trap you and profit massively while you get further and further behind. ask around. this is the way it is done. the payday industry is lying about this cycle of debt and the gazette swallowed their lies.

              • Jim Lang

                What you are saying is simply not true, and repeating it won’t make it true.

                The law is clear that the fee is capped at 25%, and it is also clear that your ‘every two weeks’ refrain was pulled out of a very dark place that smells bad.

              • Jim, note that the law does not prescribe a minimum term. Most payday loans are 2 weeks, but they can be as short as two days. Walk into a payday loan shop and see for yourself. The Truth in Lending Act requires that they post their rates in APR, and you can even find one-week loans at 1300% APR. The most common loan term, however, is two weeks and the average APR is over 400%. We don’t have to make this stuff up, the rates are simply that outrageous.

  3. the other thing about a pawn shop vs payday lender is the pawn shop doesn’t have you make out a check to them for 345 to 360 each payday which you have to make sure you cover in order to avoid a bounced check.

    if you can’t redeem the item you pawned in 30 days or pay the interest (usually about half of payday lender rates) they simply confiscate it. you don’t keep losing more and more of your tiny paychecks.

    • Jim Lang

      Gee, having your stuff “simply confiscated” as pain-free as you seem to think it is. In fact, considered the low amounts loaned as a percentage of value, it’s probably a much worse penalty than any that can be incurred at payday lender.

      I’m looking at the pawn slip from the last item I pawned; the APR was 300%. Should I feel victimized? I was able to pay my rent thanks to that loan. I was lucky to have something of value to pawn; and it’s not the first time I’ve pawned that item. But many don’t have anything of value to pawn.

      I’ve been reading your posts on this issue for months. You’ve convinced me to vote against the measure. As one of the people it is trying to help, I say, no thanks.

  4. jim- if you won’t believe me here is a page from a billings payday lender. go ask them if you want.

    http://www.cashconnection.org/livesite/page.asp?pageid=4

    please note where it says….

    “You can typically borrow between $100 and $500 (depending on the state), until your next payday.”

    i have been blogging about this for almost two years. i know what i am talking about here. i have talked to both payday lenders in missoula and i have talked with their clients. it is two weeks for a payday loan.

  5. vehicle title loans are a different animal but are covered under this initiative as well. vehicle title loans are for 30 days and can charge 300% interest.

  6. here is another link from a payday lender here in missoula. i can do this on and on, but most people know it is a loan for two weeks….

    http://www.quikcheck.com/FeesPaydayLoansMontana.aspx

    • Jim Lang

      Your inability to admit your error makes me question your good faith.

      The assertion that lenders can charge 75% every two weeks is false. The law clearly says no.

      But, assuming good faith, you could have just been wrong and not known it.

      Repeating it after the error has been pointed out turns it into a lie.

      Now I remember why I stopped posting on this blog.

      Good-bye.

      • apparently nothing satisfies you. my posts have been verified by matt. i have worked on this almost two years now. if you want to support the slime-devils it is your call.

        i can give you all the data you want to support this but you refuse to beleive it so good bye jim. like i said, you can ask any poor twenty something with a crappy wage how it works. they will tell you.

        i will leave you with a couple of thoughts though, jim. calling me a liar bothers me about as much as a bear worries about the thoughts of the gnat circling his head. i have a full time job. i am not perfect. i do get tired and make mistakes. i corrected them for you.

        i have no reason to lie. i don’t get even a cup of coffee for this crusade against loan sharking our vulnerable poor. the 80% of montanans who recognize the evil of the payday lenders will not even notice your absence when we cap the rate at 36% on nov. 2.

  7. mr benson

    I just had a friend, good liberal common sense montana born democrat, chew me out about my open support of this. This friend works with the poor all the time.

    I listened. His point is, “this is the only place to cash a paycheck if you don’t have a bank account”.

    He also laughed at me for being a nanny state leftist.

    I can’t get over the “check for a check” “post date a check” machinations of these businesses. It’s not something a person would willingly and knowingly enter into, except out of some ultimate desperation. Trading on sheer desperation doesn’t seem like a business I want in my town. It seems the lending equivalent of snake oil salesmen selling miracle cancer cures. I understand they have to charge these high fees and interest rates to make their business model work; but that’s not much different than saying, paying the vig every week makes the loan shark’s business model work.

    So pb, we do have one issue we agree on, for real. And on your side of the aisle. Maybe I am a nanny state leftist… i feel my power draining away like samson with a haircut…hey, I gotta go argue with Jay.

  8. the payday lenders did a good job of disinformation on this one goof. good luck with jay. it has been interesting and as my friend at the truck stop says…. it’s gonna get a lot more interestinger the closer it gets to nov 2.

    but, i like a good battle.

    speaking of which…. yankees and texas holding my interest at the moment. good game. good match.




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