sovereign citizens movement: domestic terrorism or just some idiots talking?

by problembear

tonight’s segment of CBS 60 minutes dealing with the sovereign citizen’s movement should alert us all to the dangers of a fanatical movement which encourages people to believe themselves above the law. many of these sovereign citizens openly brag that they will shoot to kill any law enforcement officers, government officials, politicians, judges or  anyone who they encounter which in their twisted minds might threaten their fanatic beliefs that our government has exceeded its authority and that the final solution to any encounter with peace officers should be a willingness to shoot it out in order to protect their rights. besides the willingness to use personal weaponry , the use of private liens against those they disagree with is also pervasive.

this is insanity.  and the beliefs and actions of this movement  sure sound an awful lot like these guys doesn’t it? 

this threat places police officers, wildlife officers, sheriff’s deputies, and indeed any government official in grave danger during routine traffic stops here in montana. first amendment rights give these groups the right to say whatever they want. but come on- shooting police officers encouraged?

sure seems like a lot of the “bat-crap crazy” GOP supported tea party legislators from our recently adjourned montana legislature espoused some very similar beliefs.

not sure what we can do about this, but it seems important enough to at least discuss. makes me wonder about some recent police officer shootings in this state. were they simply a crazy person snapping or did this movement play a hand in this.

  1. Pancho

    Dr. George Tiller was a OB/GYN who did late term abortions in pregnancies requiring surgical intervention to save the life or health of mothers. Like the handful of those in the U.S. who offer such services, George received regular death threats, had his clinic burned down, and was previously shot in both arms by an anti-abortion clinic bomber/arsonist.

    On May 31st, 2009, George was shot while ushering in his Lutheran church in Wichita, Kansas, by a lunatic formerly associated with the Montana “Freemen.” He was also associated with Operation Rescue West.

    Scott Roeder had been stopped fifteen years ago with a license plate that read, “sovereign citizen” or some such crap. When the citing officer looked in his car, he found two partly assembled bombs in the trunk. Scott got probation but violated it and was sent to prison. He got public representation and beat the search that served for the basis of the original charges.

    Here’s from the Wikipedia on Dr. Tiller’s assassination:

    Anti-government activism

    Scott Roeder had been a member of the anti-government Montana Freemen group. He was stopped in Topeka, Kansas, in April 1996 while displaying a placard reading “Sovereign Citizen” in lieu of a license plate. He had no driver’s license, vehicle registration or proof of insurance. Police officers searching his car discovered explosives charges, a fuse cord, a pound of gunpowder and nine-volt batteries in the trunk. He was charged, represented by a public defender, convicted in June of all four counts and sentenced to 24 months probation. In July 1997 his probation was revoked for failure to pay taxes and provide his social security number to his employer as well as other probation violations. He was sentenced to 16 months in prison to be followed by 24 months parole supervision. He filed notice of appeal and was represented by a state-funded appellate attorney who challenged the basis of the original search that found the bomb components. The Kansas Court of Appeals overturned this conviction in March 1998, ruling that the search of Roeder’s car had been illegal and remanded the case to the trial court. Roeder was released after serving only eight months.

    According to the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), Roeder belonged to an a group called the Sovereign Citizen Movement, which believes that virtually all existing government in the United States is illegitimate.The ADL’s National Director Abraham Foxman stated that “Roeder’s attachment to extreme causes extended beyond anti-abortion extremism. His extremism cross-pollinated between anti-government extremism and anti-abortion activism and led to violence and murder.”

    After being charged with murder, a delusional Roeder frequently called an Associated Press reporter from the county jail. He complained about his having been characterized in other media as having been anti-government. Roeder told the reporter, “I want people to stop and think: It is not anti-government, it is anti-corrupt-government.”

    Lindsey Roeder statements

    Lindsey and Scott Roeder were married in 1986, and were together for 10 years. Immediately after his 2009 arrest, she stated that the explosives which led to his 1996 arrest had been intended for detonation at an abortion clinic.

    On June 2, 2009, Lindsey Roeder gave an interview to Anderson Cooper of CNN about when and why her husband became radicalized:
    “ It was about 1991-92 when he basically couldn’t cope with everyday life. He couldn’t make ends meet, he couldn’t pay the bills and didn’t know why he couldn’t do that. And someone told him that if he didn’t pay his federal taxes, if those taxes were left in his check, he could make ends meet. And then he started investigating that and someone told him that it wasn’t ratified properly in the Constitution, that it was illegal. And he went from there and got into the anti-government, got into the militia, got into the Freeman, and along those lines anti-abortion issues came up and he started becoming very religious in the sense that he finally — he was reading the Bible. But then, after we were divorced, his religion took on a whole new right wing of itself.

  2. Kirsten

    I encourage you to follow @InjusticeNews on Twitter and visit .

    Whereas copkillers are typically taken care of quickly and harshly by the law and its enforcers, cops who are killers murder and maim regularly with legal protection while citizens are abused without recourse. That is a MUCH bigger concern.

    Injustice Everywhere’s Annual Police Misconduct Report for 2010 documents 1575 officers involved in excessive force complaints with 127 fatalities. Additionally, the report documents 618 officers involved in sexual misconduct complaints against including 354 complaints of sexual assault or sexual battery, with more than half the victims of those two crimes being minors.

    These are certainly very conservative numbers because this is a citizen initiative, largely self-funded and entirely without benefit of tax dollars, and based only on reports in available in the media without benefit of government records. Police departments are free to sweep their dirt under the carpet, making it difficult to impossible for the public to get relevant data. This initiative relies on reports submitted by readers and what the guy who started it is able to find in the media for its data. And, of course, this doesn’t count the thousands upon thousands of peaceful peoples’ lives police are destroying regularly by enforcing laws against victimless crimes.

    I am totally against this bullshit of killing cops or even playing around with the idea of it. That shit won’t solve anything, and those who think it will are highly delusional.

    But for god’s sake put this in perspective. I am not getting my undies in a bunch over this, while we ignore the OVERWHELMINGLY LARGER problem of agents of our government- in uniforms paid for out of our tax dollars- abusing citizens often with few or no consequences to themselves. When the police return to being peace officers instead of military-style enforcers with legal cover under which to abuse people, I may have the inclination to worry a bit more about their safety.

  3. Ingemar Johansson

    Think you’re on to something, pb.

    After all those tea party rallies disbanded the clean up crews always found dead cops buried under discarded KKK robes.

  4. The sovereign movement is a red state phenomenom, pb. It is being stoked and exploited by Malkin, Beck, and Coulter to advance their own earth hatred.

  5. phenomenon. phenom. venom.

  6. Butch

    You want to know how closely this hits home? Schaeffer Cox, arrested in Alaska in March and charged with plotting to kill judges and state troopers, is a man admired and befriended by Gary Marbut of the Montana Shooting Sports Association. In fact, Gary Marbut has at least twice been involved in helping arrange for Schaeffer Cox to speak at Montana rallies, including the “Liberty Convention” in Missoula in 2010 and at a 2009 rally in Hamilton, where they both spoke and praised each other. Gun owners need to stand up and recognize that Marbut and his ilk DO NOT speak for them. His is not a Second Amendment protection agenda. His agenda is anti-govenrment agenda.

    • Kirsten

      Marbut is hardly anti-government. Rather, he’s better described as pro-local/state government and somewhat anti-federal government. Look at his sheriffs first bill, for example.

      On the one occasion I have heard him speak about this bill, he gave as an example of how it might be used that sheriffs should be consulted first by DEA agents, but of course would go ahead and authorize anti-drug raids by the federal government to protect us. This is hardly an anti-government agenda. Rather, like most people, he is anti-government when he disagrees with it and pro-government when he sees a way to use it to enforce his personal preferences on others.

    • Searching “Gary Marbut” on YouTube only confirms what you say.

      Marbut is dangerous.

      • gary is a rich born on third base trust fund baby who likes his comforts too much to be dangerous himself but the fanatical agenda he and other gun nuts push certainly encourages a helluva lot of danger for law enforcement from people who are living on the edge.

        the radical right gun nut agenda when combined with people who are desperate and fed the posse comitatus line of being super citizens who are above the law is a very explosive mix.

        law enforcement officials need to drop the silly prosecution of marijuana and concentrate on this before it gets any more dangerous.

  7. carfreestupidity

    Real outrage is only expressed in the MSM and among the white middle class if its a minority ethnic group expressing such views.

  8. Pancho

    The “60 Minutes” piece had video of Francis “Schaffer” Cox in a court appearance in Fairbanks, though it didn’t identify who he was.

    On March 10th, Cox and four nutcase associates were apprehended with automatic weapons, a machine gun, I think a grenade launcher, what they thought were live grenades supplied by an informant.

    They intended to kill a judge, police, IRS agent and others.

    They were probably supplied by a guy who for years had provided unlicensed “security” for Palin-endorsed, Tea Party candidate for U.S. Senate, Joe Miller. It is assumed he turned informant probably because the feds (i.e., AFT, FBI, etc.) had him by the short hairs. He quickly disappeared after the Cox bust.

    In absentia, the probable informant, William Fulton, gave away his “Drop Zone” war surplus business in Anchorage to an employee through his attorney.

    Cox had been busted many times before this, including for beating up his wife.

  9. Ingemar Johansson

    I keep asking when 60 Minutes is going to do a story about illegal immigrants killing police officers. Here’s AZ’s list. Hundreds more I’m sure.

  10. They’re either illegal or immigrants. Which is it? Cattle are an invasive species. Wolves are the cure.

  11. According to Reuters, there are at least 115,000 Mexican refugees of the US war on drugs, you smug fuck.

  12. Ingemar Johansson

    Speaking of illegals, you guys catch the speech the other day.

    More felons scaling the fence.

  13. Pancho

    Excerpted from the Nation:

    In late September, Rep. Michele Bachmann (R–Minn.) will travel to a greyhound racetrack on the outskirts of Kansas City, Kansas, to speak at the Freedom Jamboree, a five-day festival billed as “the first national nominating convention” for the tea party. Bachmann, who is considering a run for president, will be joined by some familiar faces—WorldNetDaily editor and arch-birther Joseph Farah will be there; so will Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach, the architect of Arizona’s harsh immigration law.

    One confirmed speaker, however, is not like all the others: Bradlee Dean is a Minnesota radio host, anti-gay activist, and drummer for the band Junkyard Prophet, voted “the second-best unsigned band in the nation” in 1996 by Heaven’s Metal magazine. Dean is likely the only scheduled speaker with a tattoo of Abraham sacrificing Isaac on his forearm; he is almost certainly the only scheduled speaker who has ever gone more than a decade without cutting his hair

    Last fall Dean raised eyebrows when he suggested that Rep. Keith Ellison (D–Minn.), who is Muslim, was using support for gay marriage as a gateway to the enactment of Islamic Sharia law in the United States. “I would say to the homosexuals: You better keep your eyes peeled,” he said. “You are playing the fools. I knew there was a correlation. I knew it, I knew it, I knew it. And the homosexuals are using the Muslims to do it, and the Muslims are using the homosexuals to do it.”

    On his radio show, he’s alleged that gays were responsible for the Holocaust, and that gay men will, on average, molest 117 people “before they’re found out.” He’s also suggested that extremist Muslims who call for the execution of American gays are morally justified. “If America won’t enforce the laws, God will raise up a foreign enemy to do just that,” Dean explained. “[Homosexuals] play the victim when they are, in fact, the predator.” He has since clarified that he does not support executing gays, and that his remarks were intended as a brotherly warning to gays to change their ways.

    Although he portrays himself as a spirited defender of the Constitution, going so far as to offer a 12-week Constitution study class for $240, his past association with an anti-government group calls that into question. Until 2010, Dean was a member of Oregon-based Embassy of Heaven, a self-described “Christian Patriot” organization which subscribes to Sovereign Citizen ideology—the idea that citizens are themselves sovereign nations and therefore not bound to the laws of the United States.

    Although he portrays himself as a spirited defender of the Constitution, going so far as to offer a 12-week Constitution study class for $240, his past association with an anti-government group calls that into question. Until 2010, Dean was a member of Oregon-based Embassy of Heaven, a self-described “Christian Patriot” organization which subscribes to Sovereign Citizen ideology—the idea that citizens are themselves sovereign nations and therefore not bound to the laws of the United States.

    Scott Roeder, the anti-abortion extremist who murdered Dr. George Tiller at his Wichita, Kansas church in 2009, was a member of Embassy, which makes money by selling fake license plates and passports. As part of his membership in the group, Dean signed a statement “renouncing his allegiance to the world and declaring citizenship in the Kingdom of Heaven” (he did, however, continue to pay taxes). The group has been identified as an “anti-government group” by the Department of Justice.

    For instance, they both have a mind for paranoia. On his radio show, Dean has alleged that members of his ministry are being stalked by helicopters, and suggested to Labash that the moon landing was a hoax—a theory he briefly introduced to public school students as part of his stage routine. Bachmann, for her part, has suggested that, among other things, President Obama will force youths to attend “re-education camps.”

  14. Kirsten

    Here’s what happens when domestic terrorists with guns roam free in Arizona:

    We certainly should be worried about REAL domestic terrorists, but so far they are mostly men in government uniforms.

  15. Kirsten

    These domestic terrorists who beat an honors student to a bloody, disfigured mess- likely a hate crime given the details- are not only getting paid while they are off the job, but they are getting overtime pay for it!

  16. Kirsten

    And who’s the domestic terrorist in this case?

    For Anarchist, Details of Life as F.B.I. Target

  17. Kirsten

    Again, the domestic terrorists in this situation are whom?

    This Is Your War on Drugs

  18. Kirsten

    (Sorry. My dog “helped” me post that one before I got the link pasted.)

    Again, the domestic terrorists in this situation are whom?

    This Is Your War on Drugs

  19. Kirsten

    A jack-booted thug points a gun someone filming as another officer kills someone, and then put guns to the heads of other witnesses. Tell me again, who are the domestic terrorists we need to be worried about?

    • Pogue Mahone

      Wow. I can’t help but wonder what the driver did, other than being black, to provoke such a wanton murders? Cops are NOT your friends. And wait until we get lots of private police like Blackwater. We’ll be really, really safe! I wonder how these nazis sleep at night?

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