feel safe now?

by problembear

this article ran accross my twitter timeline a little while ago and i am curious.

excerpt from above article:

“The Air Force, in response to a report published by Truthout earlier this week, has pulled a Christian-themed training session that used a quote from an ex-Nazi SS officer and numerous passages from the New and Old Testament to teach missile officers about the morals and ethics of launching nuclear weapons.”

how’s that make you feel?

A. safe

B. a little creeped out

C. holy crap!

if you chose C you would be right.

imagine if some newly recruited christian identity movement dude who thinks christian fanaticism is swell like this guy were at the controls of the world’s most powerful weapon 200 feet deep beneath the wheatfields of montana late at night…….

now you can be scared. wth is with our air force training program?

  1. lizard19

    the Christian/Military nexus is in Colorado Springs, and it’s a creepy place; NORAD, the air force academy, the Christian Coalition, Focus on the Family. it’s also a city where the question of supporting local government amidst budget shortfalls has produced some interesting results.

    the former Nazi being quoted is disturbing, but not surprising for those familiar with Operation Paperclip; just one of those things that produces enough cognitive dissonance to keep many from acknowledging in order to maintain the notion of America’s noble role during WWII.

  2. Steve W

    I have the exact same argument with my brother.

    He has faith in the defense apparatus. I have faith in human kind.

  3. what is scary about religious fanaticism worming its way into our military manuals is that religious fanatics do not consider this world important. this is just a transitory place. they seek Valhalla.

    i want the personnel who are handling our most dangerous tools of war to like living on this earth.

  4. JC

    Um, you guys should take a look at the covers of the daily briefing booklets that Rumsfeld put together for Bush. Wonder where the Pentagon got the idea? Look no further:

    update: finally found the original stories that had been relocated at GQ

    GQ story “And He Shall Be Judged”: http://www.gq.com/news-politics/newsmakers/200905/donald-rumsfeld-administration-peers-detractors

    GQ Slideshow on Biblical covers for daily briefings: http://www.gq.com/news-politics/newsmakers/donald-rumsfeld-pentagon-papers

  5. D. Offended by religious bigotry.

    As a retired Navy Chaplain, I see this as the typical politically correct scrubbing of Christian ethical thought from our civilization.

    Reminds me of the ethics textbook that one of my assistants showed me which included ancient Greek philosophers, then a huge gap eliminating all Christian ethical thought until it picked up again with Keirkigaard whom the author completely mischaracterized.

    Would you like our soldiers to study “unjust warfare”? Christian just war theory shapes moral decisions in warfare within western civ, What theory would you have us follow for guiding moral decisions in warfare? Co you prefer a “scrubbed” history of thought on this subject? Aren’t our officers adults who can handle a little history lesson? Obviously our college students aren’t.

    • lizard19

      do you think our current have dozen military engagements adheres to the just war theory?

      • If I were making the decisions I wouldn’t be fighting all these wars, but I have taken on the responsibility of teaching our military people who to reason through some tough bad decisions they have made, and now suffer great guilt for it.

        You all play fast and loose with facts in your posts, pretend to experts, but never have to make a life and death decision in a split second. You cannot not navigate such a profession without good training. I would hope that they are making good moral and professional decisions after being trained in the best moral theories. Just war theory is the best thing going, and was developed within the Christian context. Sorry if this offends you.

        • lizard19

          which facts in which posts do you dispute, Rev.?

          • The idea that the classes on just war theory taught by a military chaplain is indoctrinating students about some inevitable battle of armageddon. Never seen it, and if it had been attempted within the last 25 years I am pretty sure my superiors would have put a stop to it. If not, I would have easily dealt with it myself. The author’s assumptions about the class are based on hearsay, and jump to conclusions that I cannot image being true in my first hand experience.

            I don ‘t find the author’s facts and conclusions truthful.

    • JC

      Anders Breivik studied Christian just war theory, and then used it to justify martyrdom. You down with that?

      And studying the bible isn’t exactly what I would call a “history” lesson. It’s more like studying literature or science fiction.

      • As a moral individual martyrdom is the calling of every faithful Christian, but martyrdom is dying for your beliefs, not killing others for your beliefs. So in that sense I am “down with that.”

        Do you deny that there was a man called Jesus who was crucified, buried, and then found missing from his tomb. These are historical events, not fiction. Augustine developed most of the principles of just war doctrine. Do you deny this history?

        • if you think i am not a person who believes in christ you are sadly mistaken. what i object to is the camel’s nose of religion of any kind lifting the tent flap of my country and making itself at home.

          do you deny that it is possible to be christian and still believe in the importance of the separation of church and state?

        • Escapee

          Interesting that this remarkable event that you speak of, the death and resurrection, has a dozen parallel stories in other cultures. Even more interesting is the absence of what you say is an historical event – any recorded recorded documentation. Even though the Roman occupation of the backwater is fairly well documented, there’s nothing written down until maybe a hundred years later. Nothing contemporaneous.

          • Nothing contemporaneous? We have 4 claimed eyewitness accounts in the the 4 Gospels. What within those 4 accounts would lead you to believe that they are one hundred years later? Jesus dies about the year 40, are you saying that nobody wrote anything down until the year 140? Your critique of these texts is 2000 years after the fact, what evidence can you give to prove your unreasonable claim?

            • christians burned the Library at Alexandria then created christ in their own image. Jesus of Nazareth traveled to North America and planted golden tablets for Joseph Smith to find in a drunken stupor. Temporal Lobe Epilepsy converted Paul during an opium binge. Evangelicalism=mental illness.

              • OK, religious bigotry, with not interest in seeking truth from evidence. I’m OK, your OK.

                Paul wrote, (a long time after his Epilepsy and opium binge) “For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.”

          • Escapee

            The four gospels exist in a vacuum, that is, everything else disappeared in the early second century. Further, they were written by obvious believers, and so evangelize rather than offer critical history. Justin Martyr set out in the second century to prove the existence of Jesus citing historical writings. He failed to mention MML&J, which is very strong evidence that the four books did not exist at that time.

            Paul may well have existed, but oddly says nothing of the resurrection. Odd you think?

        • I’m denying that Jesus was the son of gawd, crucified, buried, and then found missing from his tomb because these are NOT historical facts. There is absolutely no historical evidence for the story of Christ as preached in the Gospels (all written long after the context of the story, which is ironic seeing as Jesus preached the end of days would come before the deaths of his apostles…). There are some specious references to Jesus in the writings of Tacitus and Josephus, but nothing concrete.

          For one to prove the Christ story there would need to be agreement among not only the Gospels (which contradict each other), but also non-Christian writings. There is not a shared story, and you have to admit… if someone came back from the dead after being executed by a Roman prefect, it would be something to write about right then and there, and not years later.

          • You folks deal with the ancient texts in the same way you have dealt with the reports about Chaplains teaching just war theory to officers. You take the opinion of a partisan fringe group readily because it agrees with your opinion. Then when a eye witness, and experienced chaplain claims otherwise you thrust his testimony aside as specious.

            The four Gospels are the eye witness accounts, they are the primary sources, but you prefer to listen to “enlightened” textual critics working 2000 years after the fact who have been rewarded greatly for dispelling the so called myths of these accounts. Then you discredit the eye witness accounts because the most liberal theologians claim them to have been written 80 years after the fact! Do you see the logical incoherence?

            The gospel accounts are not collusion, where the testimony matches in every detail, but they are eye witnesses telling their particular experience. If they were identical that would suggest foul play. As far as contradictions, lets examine those. Show me the contradictions.

            The proof of the truth of the Gospel was not only the eye witness testimony of many, but also because of the fulfillment of ancient prophecy.

            Jesus in his story about Lazarus and the rich man says, “And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’ ”
            (Luke 16:30-31 ESV)

            And when Jesus is raised from the dead, still people refuse to believe it, and say ignorant things like “Paul never mentions the resurrection”, but Paul writes…

            “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.” (1Corinthians 15:3-8 ESV)

            If someone chooses to discredit the only eye witnesses, it is not because they are seeking the truth, but trying to hide something. At some point ignorance because dishonesty.

            • I have nothing to hide. You do however because you’ve wrapped your faith around a book of contradictions that you WANT to be truthful, but that are simply not.

              Tell me Rev, who is the father of Joseph? Heli or Jacob? How about the day these witness saw Jesus crucified? Mark says on Passover, while John says it was the day before. You call these writers “eye witnesses” and yet they apparently saw the same thing on a different day? (Jesus was capable of miracles, I guess.)

              Also, how about Jesus’ last words, those few words his followers were there to hear (as you say). Were they: “My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me?” or “Father, into your hands I commend my spirit.” or “It is finished.” Depends on which Gospel you read.

              Any learned preacher would notice that. Right?

              Going back to the issue of Joseph’s father, I ask that because there are separate lineages provided for Jesus that contradict one another. Why? Could it be that these are not firsthand accounts and that people made things up?

              Look, if you want to believe in gawd, I don’t care. But do not act as though your faith proves truth. Faith proves only truth for you, and not actual truth supported by facts. If you were intellectually honest enough to say that there are contradictions in the bible (see: Genesis 1, and Genesis 2), and admit that you look passed these to find your faith, I wouldn’t bother debating that. I can only tell the truth as I see it, and respect your belief. But, if you are so willing to make false claims, I am more than willing to show where you are incorrect.

              • Quick answers to apparent contradictions:

                Passover is not just a day, but a week long celebration. i.e. if I say, “See you next Christmas” do you mean December 25th or just Christmastide?

                Jacob is the father of Joseph. Eli is the father of Mary. Matthew- Jesus is the fulfillment of the people of Israel. Luke- Jesus is the descendent of Eve, “The seed of the woman”. (The answer is actually much more complicated with textual variants and theological meaning as well)

                The crucifixion account differences are exactly what I mean by eye witness accounts. If you had a case and four different witnesses gave the identical testimony about the crime, this would prove they were in collusion with one another, and not telling their own account, but coached. This proves their authenticity because each saw things a little differently, and included things others did not.

                Now, do any of your so called contradictions effect the testimonies about the basic facts of crucifixion, death, entombment, empty tomb, and resurrection etc? Just because of minor differences in accounts why do you scrap the whole thing as a myth? (I suspect that it has more to do with a disbelief in miraculous happenings, but if that’s the case why not make that your primary objection?)

                Let me tell you about a real contradiction! My social psychology textbook taught that religion developed after people gathered into community. Now the recent discovery of Gobeckli Tempe in Turkey has proved that it was completely the opposite, religion existed first, and the community developed around it. I guess I just lost my faith in my college text books! Oh my. Crisis of faith! Oh, but that book isn’t in print anymore, unlike my Bible.

                Your problem about the two creation accounts is a bit off topic, but let me tell you this. There aren’t two but three! Each from a slightly different perspective. It is not a just an account of creation, but it teaches us something about the creator, and humanity as well.

              • You’re right. I should have made it clear that I was referring to the seder feast. I apologize for characterizing Passover as a single day.

                However, the contradictions remain, and the fact is that a day difference is a big deal even in the context you’ve set out of eye witness not in collusion. By your reasoning there should be some people who watched Kennedy shot who think it happened on November 22, and some who think it happened on November 23. This is a fallacy, and you know it.

                And I must say that your use of the Gobekli Tepe site as basis for your beliefs, and an indictment of science, is astounding. That site does seem to suggest that hunter-gatherer tribes had gods, but it does not fully support what you’re claiming it does. Scientists are still excavating and attempting to understand the site. But, its symbolic links to Sumerian culture show that the builders may have been a precursor to the Sumerians–which does not mean that it went religion-culture, as you are stating, but that it may have gone tribes-gods-civilization.

                That’s surely a big breakthrough, but it doesn’t mean science is 100percent wrong. It means it was off a bit. And science, which is not etched in stone, will study and adjust as necessary. Unlike religion, science doesn’t claim infallibility.

                Science grows, Rev. Gordish, it makes mistakes along the way, and in growing and changing it corrects itself.

                But mostly I’m confused about why you would cite Gobekli Tepe as somehow proving your point. This site, if religious in the way we understand religion today, does a better job at disproving the authenticity of monotheism. Absurdly as it seems, one could make the observation that if these are neo-Pagan sculptures, then Pagan-polytheistic faiths are the “true” religions of man. If this were early religion as described in the bible, surely this site would depict one gawd, and one gawd only.

                One thing those lying college books got right: there were many gawds before your one gawd (thus that bit of jealous expression in the Old Testament so eloquently stated as “you shall have no other gods before me” [Exodus 20:3]; I always wondered why gawd would acknowledge other gawds if those other gawds were lies…).

                And the human ability to create gawd is not disproved by the Gobekli Tepe site. If anything it only serves that we modern humans have not given the credit to our ancient fore-bearers that they deserve. They apparently were creating gawds before governments, those fine neo-lithic beings.

                About your swipe at my observation of Geneses 1&2, again: why are there differences? Did Adam not have a pen? Was he drunk (like Noah) when he recounted the tale and thus didn’t get the story straight?

                And why, if your faith is so strong, must you blur these contradictions until they seem “true”? Just have your faith with its faults and be happy to have it. You’re obviously a smart guy, and I give you credit for trying to prove your faith. But it’s still faith. It isn’t provable, nor does it require proof.

                But I do respect your tenacity and I hope you know that I do respect your belief. I just don’t share it.

              • Nope, Adam didn’t have a pen. The entire book of Genesis is prehistoric material passed on orally. Moses recorded it for us. He had a pen.

                Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John all had pens. They record for us the important information of historic and factual events. You read those accounts, and try to disprove them using what appear to your modern eyes, not living in the ancient culture, not reading the original Greek texts, as contradictions.

                A fuller explanation of why there is no contradiction of the day of the crucifixion can be found here. http://www.answering-islam.org/Cross/crucifixion-day.html

                I like your illustration using Kennedy, only let me use it. It would be like saying today that Kennedy wasn’t assassinated at all. Those who deny the historicity of the resurrection need to explain how Paul can write about all the witnesses to this resurrection only 20-30 years after the fact, and his texts be accepted by the community if these claims are false? 1 Corinthians 15:3-8

                Why would Paul, Peter, and many other eye witnesses rather be put to death for proclaiming this truth, rather than deny it? Basically, why would they lie so brazenly? How does it benefit them?

                Your the one who thinks these are all myths, but haven’t examined very closely the evidence available to you. Why do I pick on textbooks? Because I suspect that your lack of faith is because you were fed a bunch of outdated scholarship from a college professor somewhere when you were young and impressionable so that he could convert you to a new faith in science, human reason, and statism. That professor was not speaking in the realm of science and reason.

                Science: Searching for truth using human observation. (Limited by human reason and observation)

                Revelation (Bible): The one who knows tells you the truth. (Limited by human ability to understand, and the ability of the one who reveals to communicate).

                They both deal with different types of truth, and they have different purposes. Just don’t deny facts and call them myths because they don’t agree with your own assumptions (read- your faith).

                I have faith in humanity, and science but understand its limitations and assumptions.

                I have faith in God while understanding the limitations of language and humanity, but also the infinite wisdom of the the one who revealed himself in a man named Jesus, who taught about the depth of the creators love, condemned the arrogance of man, and went willingly to a gruesome execution in order that God and man might be reconciled, and brought into communion with him. These are theological truths that cannot be scientifically verified, they must be revealed by God. Science cannot prove or disprove them, but human observation (the disciples testimony) is used, and human reason is used to read and interpret the ancient documents handed down by the eye witnesses.

                My real beef is that you complain about just war theory being taught to missile officers because it violates the separation of church and state, while my tax dollars paid that college professor to indoctrinate his students, and prevents any rebuttal to his faith about the non-existance of God or gawd as you say. Separation of church and state? No, sorry, that only works one way.

              • To be fair I haven’t said a thing about just war theory. I’ve only talked about the bible be inaccurate, and gawd not existing.

  6. Rev- your choice D obviates the problem with force feeding fanatic christian beliefs. When government endorses the indoctrination of your beliefs on our enlisted air force personnel it oversteps the boundaries of a prudent separation which provides for individual choice.

    It creates an “expectation” of belief which makes a mockery of the freedoms these men and women are sworn to defend.

    What role does religion play in following orders?

    • Is teaching just war theory and history indoctrination of religious beliefs just because the theory was developed within a Christian context? One doesn’t have to be a Christian to support just war theory. Chaplains teach such courses because they are the subject matter experts on the topic, (not JAGS, Medical, or Supply Officers) and I have met any of my Muslim, Jewish, or chaplains of other world religions who disagree with its principles. Trust me, whenever our combatants violate just war theory you will be the first to condemn…I hope.

      Military professionals don’t follow just any order, but orders that are lawful. There are times disobedience is expected. Sometimes obeying orders has long term effects on a person as well. Particularly if you followed the order to destroy countless humans. These are not robots they are people.

      • good point, rev.

        i do understand the role of individual religious beliefs within a private clergy to soldier dynamic.

        what is objectionable is forced teachings in a senior officer endorsed training manual expected to be be adhered to by subordinate military personnel and purporting to represent the views of our government.

        this “Bush” view of military as crusade is dangerous and leads to much more animosity toward our defenders who are in harms way as it is in the middle east. making our manuals in the form of religious pamphlets only further endangers our troops and is counter-productive to achieving any sort of peace.

      • Which orders are lawful again? The military will do whatever it takes even to use Jesus as a weapon: http://www.democracynow.org/2011/4/6/new_york_court_to_hear_case

        Nidal Hasan cracked when he came to grips with the hypocrisy of war.

  7. ladybug

    The term Christian is much too broad in this context. What’s happening in C Springs and on C Street is pretty specific dogma, now widespread in all branches of the military and in the rapidly-expanding private-mercenary corps.

    • Last year NPR reported that Xe, formerly they who must not be named, issues bullets with John 3:16 engraved on them. There has been a billboard on the Whitehall side of Homestake Pass invoking this phenomenon. Is it still there?

      • during the crusades, private parties of noblemen pledged their lives, honor and their fortunes to go off and fight these ridiculous wars.

        if blackwater and those inclined to seek the holy grail want to spread the word of christ at the tip of a sword and spend trillions let them use their own funds. they can put all the christian analogies and myths they want into the manuals of their mercenaries. i want the armed forces of this country used to defend our own borders. not inflict martyrdom on others for religious purposes.

        this is turning into another worldwide holy war. our military and the taxpayers in this country need to stay out of it. and i am sick and tired of our so-called christian noblemen asking me to pay for their fantasies.

  8. JC

    Speaking of being scared, our new Defense Secretary is morphing into Donald Rumsfeld. Here’s what he recently had to say about the Iraq war:

    At Camp Victory, Panetta told troops that “[t]he reason you guys are here is because of 9/11. The US got attacked and 3,000 human beings got killed because of Al-Qaeda. We’ve been fighting as a result of that.”

    Talk about some historical revisionism. Maybe he’s putting biblical quotes on Obama’s daily briefings too.

  9. JC

    Here’s some more on Bush’s fanaticism:

    “In 2003 while lobbying leaders to put together the Coalition of the Willing, President Bush spoke to France’s President Jacques Chirac. Bush wove a story about how the Biblical creatures Gog and Magog were at work in the Middle East and how they must be defeated.

    In Genesis and Ezekiel Gog and Magog are forces of the Apocalypse who are prophesied to come out of the north and destroy Israel unless stopped. The Book of Revelation took up the Old Testament prophesy:

    “And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle … and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.”

    Bush believed the time had now come for that battle, telling Chirac:

    “This confrontation is willed by God, who wants to use this conflict to erase his people’s enemies before a New Age begins”…

    The story has now been confirmed by Chirac himself in a new book, published in France in March, by journalist Jean Claude Maurice. Chirac is said to have been stupefied and disturbed by Bush’s invocation of Biblical prophesy to justify the war in Iraq and “wondered how someone could be so superficial and fanatical in their beliefs”.”

    • These ideas if actually believed, were not filtering down to any operational units during the war, and such thoughts were defused by the chaplains I worked with.

      Unfortunately, war decisions these days are based on facts not readily available to the man on the street, but I can assure you these looney reasons were not in any of the intelligence briefings I attended during the first days of Operation Iraqi Freedom. There were other more strategic and logical reasons given.

      • that is good news rev. but it is small comfort to me that the foot soldiers on the ground had to put in a position where they are forced to intentionally ignore the fantasies of these (in my view) phony christian noblemen who allowed this type of crusade fantasy drivel into our troop’s training manuals to begin with.

        it is also little comfort to me that it took several years for a citizen driven organization like truth-out to shed light on this atrocity and therefore relieve our troops of the duty of reading it.

        it makes one wonder just how derelict the pentagon has become regarding separation of church and state. this problem deserves full scrutiny. not only for the sake of the safety of our troops in harms way but for the safety of our freedoms in general.

      • lizard19

        i don’t know how you can state with such certainty that Bush’s Christian lunacy (if that’s what you are referring to by saying “these ideas”) didn’t filter down to any operational units. that may be your well-informed opinion, but it’s a big Military, with lots of soldiers, and i doubt all chaplains acted in the ways you’re claiming the ones you worked with did.

        and wars these days aren’t necessarily based on facts. sometimes they’re based on lies. that’s a fact.

        • It’s hard to lie to the guys seeing the situation first hand. I think they see the facts as they are playing. The author’s characterization of what was being taught is hard for me even to imagine being the case, 25 years first hand experience.

          Chaplain Timothy Gordish
          LCDR, USN Retired

          • apparently since the article came out the air force is concerned enough to pull the requirement, clearly someone in command considers this situation to be serious enough. that the allegations have merit.

          • Escapee

            It’s been my experience that the soldiers in the theaters are concerned with their comrades first. In terms of why they are there, the military does two things well: These kids are indoctrinated and operate on need-to-know only. Consequently, I find soldiers to be unreliable for anything except ground-zero reports, and even for that they are usually forbidden from talking. Just ask Bradley Manning what happens when you talk out of school.

  10. In my personal experience all complaints are reviewed to some degree. If the course is edited and returned, it will reinforce my opinion that it is being done to appease the politically correct. This does have influence, and does hurt people. Why do you think that a Muslim psych officer was retained and even promoted with the result that unarmed soldiers were shot by that officer?

    • correct is to enforce a separation of church and state. bringing more camels into the tent solves nothing. it only exacerbates a bad situation.

      many said timothy mcveigh was a good christian and a good soldier too.

      in my opinion they were just both insane.

    • Escapee

      Maybe Muslims get upset at all of the hundreds of thousands of them that are getting killed by Americans? I can’t really think of another reason to get angry at this country other than all of the barbaric violence we inflict on other people.

      Of course they know that when the bombs come in that they are American bombs and those are good bombs, but you know, there are the irrational ones who get angry and can’t see that our intentions are good. We should kill them.

  11. nothing helps the reccruitment of fanatic organizations like creationists and white supremecy groups like a failing economy.

  12. False equivalency rev. College students and professors can choose what they teach and learn. Manuals and missile officers do not provide a choice. Nor are you allowed to dispute it. A lecture is not indoctrination. A manual certainly is.

  13. My take is that the right doesn’t have a problem with state-ordered fascism. As long as it is THEIR FASCISM. Ie: military/christian indoctrination, denying women’s rights etc.

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