Due Process Is Dead, And Obama Is The One Who Killed It

September 30, 2011 in Foreign Policy, Montana

by lizard

Another terrorist has been taken out, and our president can now boldly state that such antiquated notions as due process for American citizens no longer apply.

I’m wondering if this ability to flout a core principal of our judicial process is something only presidents can make use of.

Otherwise, someone should tell the protestors that the economic terrorists on Wall Street can now be executed at will, simply because they are terrorists.

Oh well, time to start another day, citizens. And if you hear a slight droning sound overhead, don’t worry. You are not terrorists, and therefore have nothing to worry about…right?

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55 Comments

  1. Turner

    September 30, 2011 at 8:02 am

    Do you think it would’ve been possible for American law enforcement officers to arrest al-Awlaki and Samir Khan in Yemen and bring them back to our country to be tried? If so, I’m with you.

    Reply
    • lizard19

      September 30, 2011 at 9:52 am

      whether or not it’s possible to arrest al-Awlaki is not the point. the fact that our constitutionally guaranteed rights have been weakened by this extrajudicial assassination is the point.

      not only is this incredibly dangerous for US citizens, but it could be dangerous for our elected leaders as well.

      there are plenty of people in this world who think Bush, Cheney, and the torture team are terrorists responsible for allowing torture (that has led to death in more than a few cases) to happen.

      if they are declared terrorists by another nation, then why not try to assassinate them? or Obama. i could see some rightwing domestic extremist group using this to justify assassinating Obama.

      this is incredibly dangerous. and as exemplified by the stupid comment below, there are plenty of Americans who don’t seem to get it.

      assholes on the right can talk all they want about America’s precious constitution, but if they don’t give a shit about it applying to ALL American citizens, then anything they have to say about, let’s say, gun rights, is meaningless.

      Reply
  2. rawr

    September 30, 2011 at 8:40 am

    Due process is a right of AMERICAN citizens.

    You said it yourself …”our president can now boldly state that such antiquated notions as due process for American citizens no longer apply.”

    This was a known terrorist living outside of the US in a declared war zone. Get your holier than thou head out of yer tail. Terrorist are not afforded rights under our Constitution, just like Nazis weren’t.

    Reply
  3. ladybug

    September 30, 2011 at 9:00 am

    rawr,

    I know the presumption of innocence must seem trite to you, however, American citizens not living in the U.S. retain rights granted by our Constitution. It’s only a piece of paper, but without its full force no rights are safe. Alleged terrorists are no less innocent, or guilty, until the evidence is presented, weighed, and judged by one’s peers beyond a doubt. What evidence do you have to judge any man to death by state assissination? And no, we are not at war with Yemen — yet.

    Reply
  4. carfreestupidity

    September 30, 2011 at 10:31 am

    Liz… you are the terrorist for even broaching this subject and for criticizing dear leader Obama, the truest and most pure of American Patriots. I hope Obama has his minions spying on all of your obviously Un-American activities as I type this.

    Reply
  5. jack ruby

    September 30, 2011 at 12:04 pm

    This is nothing new unfortunately but the President doesn’t really have a good option that is Constitutionally sound in this specific scenario. If he has to weigh killing this guy when given the chance vs. indicting and hoping that at some point a legal arrest presents itself (while also living with the fact that his decision leaves this individual free to potentially harm or kill others into the future) its hard to really blame any Presidential decision maker from choosing to kill the guy. That also doesn’t really make it legal either though. I dont have a good answer. I guess the answer is to continue to shine the light on and challenge this stuff to make sure it does not slide further which is what the good people at the ACLU do.

    Reply
  6. Craig Moore

    September 30, 2011 at 12:41 pm

    Sorry to interfere but I think you need to consider this analysis: http://volokh.com/2011/09/30/anwar-al-aulaqi-apparently-killed-by-drone-in-yemen/

    Remember. there were American citizens who fought for Germany in WWII. As the link states:

    Al-Aulaqi was an American-born radical Muslim cleric who had emerged as both a leading voice in Al Qaeda recruiting and propaganda over the internet and, according to the US government, was also involved in operations and operational planning with Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, an offshoot Al Qaeda terrorist organization that the US governments regards as an “associated force” with Al Qaeda (and hence covered by the terms of the original Authorization to Use Military Force)…

    The government has maintained throughout all this that Al-Aulaqi was deemed a lawful target not on account of his expression of opinions, including calls to violence against the United States and its citizens, but instead on account of his operational involvement in AQAP, in ways going to leadership of an associated force terrorist organization and operational and planning involvement.

    Reply
  7. Ingemar Johansson

    September 30, 2011 at 1:04 pm

    My question would be was this guy really an American citizen? His parents were Yemeni. Although he was born in NM he grew up in Yemen and had dual citizenship. Something that was illegal until fairly recently.

    This is even more reason to get rid of the stupid anchor baby interpretation.

    Reply
    • Steve W

      September 30, 2011 at 9:53 pm

      Fairly recently IJ aka Big Swede?

      Birth in the US has been recognized as the equivalent of citizenship since the passage of the 14th amendment to the US Constitution in 1868. You absolutely amaze me with some of the things you expect others to swallow.

      Dual citizenship has been around since countries have been around. Thomas Jefferson was a dual citizen with France while he was in the White House. Can you bother with that? Or would you rather change the subject?

      This guy they just killed was almost certainly a US citizen. He may in fact owe back taxes we now can’t collect due to his decreased earnings capabilities. Or maybe he was paying taxes on his income. I haven’t seen that reported.

      Maybe they drone missiled him (3rd time’s the charm) because he was hiding taxable income and the IRS was pissed. (Sarcasm and irony alert. Are you all paid up, IJ aka Bigg Schwede?)

      Seriously, what does “fairly recently” mean to you, where you live? Or do you assume your fellow humans are too dumb to catch on?

      Can you bother? to check some facts? Before? You post? IJ? (formerly known as “Big Swede.”) So why did you switch identities anyway? Did being “Big Swede” became more than you could handle? Who else are you out around the tubes?

      Reply
  8. carfreestupidity

    September 30, 2011 at 1:27 pm

    When does Rush get a Tomahawk missile land on his head from a drone for inspiring an anti-tax suicide plane attack against the IRS in Texas?

    Reply
  9. Turner

    September 30, 2011 at 1:34 pm

    The following statement will no doubt bring hoots of derision. But here goes:

    I believe that our government is responsible for protecting us against the murderous behavior of others, including other Americans. When there is sound evidence that known persons are plotting horrendous crimes against Americans, and when those persons are beyond the reach of our law enforcement and judicial systems, I expect our government to use other means, including lethal means, to put an end to their plotting.

    Please notice that I said “sound evidence.” Unfortunately, that’s not the same thing as publicly available evidence.

    Reply
    • lizard19

      September 30, 2011 at 1:54 pm

      so you are comfortable allowing our president to disregard due process if he is operating on sound evidence that we, as a public, will never see?

      you must really trust this president. i don’t. i think he’s a liar willing to do and say anything to get reelected. that includes playing up his tough-guy terrorist killing credentials.

      this doesn’t make us safer. don’t you get that? we’ve allowed our government to undermine crucial principals in order to make us more “safe” but in fact the opposite has happened.

      like our predator drone strikes, this assassination will be great for recruiting. our politicians have played right into the hands of the extremists by trashing our constitution to justify targeted assassinations.

      but hey, through incremental steps, we’ve let them do it. welcome to fascism. it will only get worse from here.

      Reply
      • Darwin26

        September 30, 2011 at 3:44 pm

        you could not be more correct Lizard. Everytime we look the other way ‘Justice~ looking forward’ as the Ruler/Dictator ObamaNationInc said as the Bush Crime Family and the Rulers before them ~ did sweep Political Wrong and Sedition under the carpet…
        Dude When Politics Trumps the Law you are NOT living in the America you think you are

        Reply
  10. jack ruby

    September 30, 2011 at 2:03 pm

    lizard19
    September 30, 2011 at 1:57 pm

    i Rate This

    nothing new? have other US citizens been assassinated with a predator drone strike?

    —–

    Yes.

    Reply
  11. jack ruby

    September 30, 2011 at 2:19 pm

    Just trust my judgment on this one you dont need to see the evidence. (kidding)

    http://tech.mit.edu/V122/N54/long4-54.54w.html

    Reply
  12. lizard19

    September 30, 2011 at 2:37 pm

    There is a big difference between collateral damage and targeted assassination

    Reply
  13. jack ruby

    September 30, 2011 at 2:45 pm

    Is there? Maybe. If you assume that the Bush administration was being honest about whether they knew who was in the vehicle. I find that pretty unlikely but they were probably smart not to admit it. Then they did not have to deal with the sticky legal questions here. Obama would have been better off maybe just claiming that they didnt know this gentleman was in the car until after the fact. So does he get points for transparency then?

    Reply
    • lizard19

      September 30, 2011 at 2:55 pm

      Yes, he could have had this done more covertly, but he didn’t. Why? It will be good for his reelection campaign. Those who care about the constitutional implications of this action appear to be a small minority.

      Reply
      • Rob Kailey

        September 30, 2011 at 3:32 pm

        Those who’ve already made up their mind that this military action is unconstitutional are very likely in a small minority. Those who “care about the constitutional implications of this action” are likely still in a minority, but I strongly doubt it is as small as you ‘appear’ to think.

        Bob Brigham, on the Twitters today, called for the impeachment of President Obama on grounds of violating the 5th amendment. I think that’s a helluva good idea. I don’t favor his conviction and removal by the Senate, mind you, but the Impeachment proceedings would be damned enlightening. They would clarify at least three things. How far are congressionally granted war powers allowed to go? How can Congress grant such powers to a President (itself likely unconstitutional) and what truly establishes a person as an ‘enemy combatant’.

        I strongly doubt that the House has the will to even call for Impeachment, however. The Republicans who control that body will find themselves in the unenviable position of claiming that Obama used the very powers they said he could use, while their own constituents celebrate Obama’s effectiveness at killin’ the bad guys. It’s kind of like the Libyan bombings, where Republicants found themselves kvetching about ‘that one’ in the White House doing what they wanted to do all along. Underlying the whole affair is that most of the American people will continue to favor the killing of al Awlaki even if they “care” about the constitutional questions involved in doing so.

        Reply
  14. jack ruby

    September 30, 2011 at 3:10 pm

    I care about it deeply but I guess I didnt share the same sense of hysterical shock and outrage as you, Jesse Horns and Glenn Grennwald because in my opinion its been going on for quite a while now. Its not a new thing. Its also illegal in my opinion but like I said above there’s no easy answer. Maybe a solution would be Congress needs to step up and enact a statutory scheme similar to FISA so there is at least some judicial oversight. I dont like the legal blackhole and implications for due process rights. Apart from the legal implications but on a practical level this guy was hiding out overseas in what is essentially a hostile country, out of reach of legal process and planning terrorist attacks on the united states. As much as I find the legal concept of ‘war on terror’ kind of ridiculous….as a practical matter I have no problem with him being killed. A legal process needs to be constructed that deals with this kind of situation and provides review of it because in my opinion there is a need for actions like this to take place.

    Reply
  15. Turner

    September 30, 2011 at 3:30 pm

    Liz, I think you’re overreacting (“fascism”? Really?). And I don’t buy your slippery slope argument.

    Where we differ is that you begin with the assumption that Obama et al are lying. Always. Habitually or criminally.

    I don’t. I think sometimes things are what they seem. There’s not always a huge governmental/corporate/military effort to deceive us and turn us into vassals.

    There only sometimes is.

    Reply
    • Rob Kailey

      September 30, 2011 at 3:48 pm

      The slippery slope argument is complete BS. The whole point of due process is that each case be judged on its merits. To claim that due process is dead because of one case of questionable merit and jumping willy-nilly to the claim that the POTUS can now drop bombs on protesters is, on it’s face, ridiculous. It is claiming that each case can be seen as the same, if we ignore the fact that each isn’t the same. Damn that Obama!

      Reply
    • lizard19

      September 30, 2011 at 5:55 pm

      i’ll try to respond more at length later, but there is some interesting domestic traction on display in just this comment thread.

      ironically, Obama’s sanctioning of this extrajudicial hit also allows the racists and bigots on the right to further erode what it means to be an “American”

      My question would be was this guy really an American citizen? His parents were Yemeni. Although he was born in NM he grew up in Yemen and had dual citizenship. Something that was illegal until fairly recently.

      This is even more reason to get rid of the stupid anchor baby interpretation.

      as for the slippery slope, i’d love to hear more about how charting this downward trajectory is bullshit.

      Reply
      • Rob Kailey

        September 30, 2011 at 6:44 pm

        How is Obama’s decision ironic, in other than the Morissette sense? You say it’s extra-judicial. Guilty until proven innocent to you, obviously. Your evidence is that one of a bunch of “racist” assholes agree with Obama? Really? Perhaps, just supposing, you could provide a bit of evidence that what the Kenyon socialist devil baby did was even remotely against the law?

        The law is the law. There is no downward trajectory to it until the judiciary rules regarding it’s efficacy. Do keep that in mind.

        Reply
  16. problembear

    September 30, 2011 at 5:30 pm

    the argument that if we do not protect other citizen’s rights, we will eventually lose our own rights is a valid argument.

    that being said, i also believe due process is expendable when the target is a sworn enemy of the us who has no interest in improving or working for a better nation. this person was only interested in destroying america by any means necessary, including killing innocent citizens.

    the president has both the right and the responsibility to take him out.

    Reply
  17. Darwin26

    September 30, 2011 at 7:36 pm

    Well i guess that’s why we killed off Geronimo, Cochise, Sitting Bull ~ they had no interest in improving or working for a better Nation…
    One mans Terrorist is another mans Freedom Fighter …
    Bear i suppose you are completely behind the atrocities of the Zionist Pigs from Israhell, who perpetrate Genocide on the Palestinians? because they aren’t working and improving Israhell…?
    you sound like a Brown Shirt to me.

    Reply
    • problembear

      September 30, 2011 at 8:20 pm

      “you sound like a Brown Shirt to me.”

      interesting. i allow others the courtesy of their opinion here without casting personal insults. yet i am the brown shirt. intolerance of diversity of opinion seems like a hypocritical error here.

      or am i not “hearing” you right darwin?

      Reply
  18. JayByrd

    September 30, 2011 at 8:03 pm

    If we are going to kill American citizens without trial anywhere in the world, it shouldn’t be up just to the executive branch. It also needs to be sanctioned by the legislative and judicial branches to provide checks and balances.
    Otherwise a future executive will start labeling any political opponent a terrorist and then murder the opposition.

    Reply
  19. lizard19

    September 30, 2011 at 9:13 pm

    i guess those who support this hit have no confidence in the FBI, the CIA, the NSA, Homeland Security, our military, and our local law enforcement in keeping us safe from the incitement to violence and alleged plots this radical cleric has been executed for.

    how can one man be so scary that people here are willing to allow constitutionally guaranteed rights to be eroded just so he can be blown to pieces?

    is this country so fragile that it can’t abide some extremist spouting hate and violence without violently lashing out, proving we are the imperial monsters he says we are?

    a better question to ponder is this: why does this now deceased cleric’s brand of religiously fueled hatred get traction?

    it’s because Yemen is dirt poor, and their oppressors have America’s blessing. just like Bahrain, where the Obama administration has resumed selling arms to that murderous regime.

    if we want to be safer as US citizens, we need to stop US imperialism. until that happens, there will continue to be people like al-awlaki exploiting America’s decade of irrational wars.

    Reply
  20. Darwin26

    September 30, 2011 at 10:01 pm

    i no longer even read his drivel, he’s a first rate mindless T-klaner … its just to stupid to read – so don’t ~ and save yourself.

    Reply
    • problembear

      October 1, 2011 at 12:07 am

      i am about writing about issues that seem solveable – and trying to figure out how to screw the wheels back on this unraveling country one rusted stripped nut at a time. we need jobs for people who are losing their homes. we need a decent health care system that doesn’t bankrupt everyone so a few bloated companies can get stupendously wealthy. .

      raving about some terrorist who gets droned halfway around the world just seems like a lot of wasted energy to me. only a handful of people even care. sometimes it is good to step back and get some perspective…… we’re on the threshold of hell economically in this country and our politicians are bribed to fulfill all the wish lists of multinational corporations and ignore the people who they are supposed to represent.

      i am no pacifist. and i have never pretended to be. if people are disappointed in some fiction they have about what i stand for, that is their problem. i could care less.

      but getting sidetracked on emotional tangents just seems more important to some than solving problems that the majority of americans are truly concerned about. that’s ok too.

      but when i express my opinion i expect to be treated with an equal amount of equanimity.and tolerance. otherwise you risk looking quite arrogant and you lose the moral high ground that you so covet.

      being called a nazi doesn’t sit well with this bear and won’t go unanswered.

      Reply
      • lizard19

        October 1, 2011 at 6:12 am

        raving about some terrorist who gets droned halfway around the world just seems like a lot of wasted energy to me. only a handful of people even care. sometimes it is good to step back and get some perspective……

        raving, waste of energy, no one cares.

        i would suggest you step back and get some perspective as well, pbear. you said this in a recent comment about the wall street protests:

        steve- keep in mind that you only have to kill a few rats to scare the others into leaving or learning to behave.

        sounds like incitement to violence to me. think you’re protected by the 1st amendment? the erosion continues to happen, whether or not anyone cares.

        well, i care. this drone strike in Yemen, killing a “US born” radical, is part of the war on terror. the war on terror is part of US hegemony projected globally. the cost of maintaining and expanding that hegemony leaves the homeland impoverished.

        this is interrelated, pbear. don’t put the blinders on just because it’s some terrorist you think deserves to be executed by executive decree half a world away.

        Reply
  21. Darwin26

    October 1, 2011 at 12:47 am

    are you talk’n bout my tip on not reading Igomar ?

    Dude, try defining what it means to be a Nation of Laws?

    oh yeah who cares ’bout dat ~ we wants jobs ‘n don’t be get’n on no tangents ’bout laws in shit ~ we’re Low IQ voters and we don’t need no uhhh equalz ~

    Justice protects Liberty – without enforced accountability you have a Dictatorship Bear… jobs i mean feudal serfs is what you get with out Laws that Regulate what the Rulers can do… Give them an Inch and they’ll take a MILE and so it goes with Jobs, Campaign Finance, Military-Corp- Facism and KILLING Americans for Any Reason without Arresting them on Charges IE Habeas Corpus sheeeeeeesh

    Reply
  22. Darwin26

    October 1, 2011 at 7:17 am

    ….as i went to bed ~ thinking this guy’s nothing but a Tory, forgetaboutdah Brown Shirt dude. While the likes of Jefferson, Madison and Paine were constantly under threat of assassination (Hello) or captured by King George ~ Tories like you were filled with glee.
    Dude, you need to get some educashun! What ‘right’ does the Imperialist USA have in the Middle East? except that our Military uses more oil than all the other Countries combined and we need more of it for our Conquests!
    Do you think the patriots in Lebanon blew up the US military barracks there because they didn’t like our Bar-B-Q’s? WTF

    Reply
    • lizard19

      October 1, 2011 at 9:38 am

      i should have said this yesterday: tossing around brown shirt barbs is not constructive, and i will delete further comments if it persists.

      Reply
  23. problembear

    October 1, 2011 at 8:19 am

    Liz- the context of my words referred to killing corporations (rats) like bank of america, chase and wells fargo by withdrawing accounts in support of #occupywallstreet – I am sure you were aware of this.

    I am equally disappointed that you would resort to intellectual dishonesty to further your agenda here. Your shrill and emotional ways undermine your valid points here which I acknowledged.

    If you don’t like my opinions at least be stand up about not representing my words falsely. It looks pathetic.

    Reply
    • lizard19

      October 1, 2011 at 9:25 am

      intellectual dishonesty? shrill? those wouldn’t be personal insults would they?

      and why is being emotional a point of criticism here? is it only appropriate to express emotions when the target is payday loan sharks and health insurance companies?

      yes, i was aware that your violent language was aimed at corporations. i was making the point that the direction this is going is making inciting violence punishable by death, without due process.

      so you think this executive hit was justified, and that it was carried out as part of a responsible government decision to protect us citizens.

      we disagree. i’ve made my points, and you’ve made yours. i’m afraid anything further will just lead to things said by both of us we will later regret.

      like saying i look pathetic. i consider that a personal insult.

      Reply
      • problembear

        October 1, 2011 at 3:39 pm

        i regret nothing i’ve written here liz. i simply disagreed with some points and even noted originally that your overall call to protect our rights as citizens was well founded.

        i was personally attacked for it.

        it was your decision then to intentionally mischaracterize some words i wrote in another context which had nothing to do with this post to make a false point about nothing i actually wrote.

        i make mistakes all the time here liz, and apologize for them. it takes real maturity to own up to them though. writing is hard and we rarely get credit here for doing it from anyone. it is always deflating to disagree with someone you thought might agree, but that is just part of the game. we need to rise above or we are as bad as the things and people we are trying to fix in this very traumatized nation of ours.

        your heart is good and your intentions here are good. i recognize that. i also recognize it is a very slim minority that agrees with you. but just like dave budge we must mistrust the majority on occasion if we are to have justice. think of my comment as an opportunity for you to make good points. instead the thread devolved and we learned a little but could have learned much more with a courteous if spirited debate. if darwin et al could have turned down the shrill nazi stuff and you had not over-reacted i was quite ready to debate. but you are right. it is too stale now and we lost the opportunity.

        so we persevere and maybe learn a little something about how to have a mature discussion instead of a shouting match. i prefer to shout at the really bad guys here. not those who want to make the country better.

        peace. (even though bears are not particularly known for it)

        Reply
  24. lizard19

    October 1, 2011 at 3:10 pm

    ***BREAKING NEWS***

    it appears the predator strike produced a terrorist twofer, and the other dark skinned dude with a foreign sounding name was also “US born”.

    maybe to quell the concern of Muslim Americans we should execute the American soldiers involved in the kill team that murdered and took body-part souvenirs. you know, to be fair.

    Reply
  25. carfreestupidity

    October 1, 2011 at 3:56 pm

    If Obama is going to act as judge, jury, and executioner, he needs to wear a cod piece…

    Reply
  26. lizard19

    October 1, 2011 at 6:26 pm

    first, pbear, let’s get this clear, it was not me who attacked you, it was darwin, and i put him on notice. that level of antagonism is bullshit.

    but your response to him, stating generally that those who rave about this guy getting taken out is a waste of energy, came off as a condescending dismissal of my post. i don’t have a lot of spare energy, so when i take the time to blog about something, it’s because i think it’s important.

    it was your decision then to intentionally mischaracterize some words i wrote in another context which had nothing to do with this post to make a false point about nothing i actually wrote.

    my only regret is i didn’t provide more context to your comment, because the point i was trying to make certainly does have to do with this post.

    al-Alwaki was killed for inciting violence. there is no evidence he took up arms against the US. there is no evidence he provided logistical support to attacks like the Ft. Hood lone wolf. he was killed because of what he said, without due process.

    the first amendment that protects you when you say a few corporations should be killed like rats is the same first amendment that should protect ALL citizens. i don’t think we’re all that far away from an America where you will be jailed for saying something like what you said online.

    that’s the point i was trying to make. i was not intentionally trying to mischaracterize your words. and it has everything to do with this post.

    peace, pbear.

    Reply
  27. lizard19

    October 1, 2011 at 9:38 pm

    in CNN’s reporting of this terrorist-twofer, the following two paragraphs jump out (my emphasis added):

    “It was entirely legal. If a citizen takes up arms against his own country, he becomes an enemy of the country. The president was acting entirely within his rights and I fully support the president,” King said.

    Al-Awlaki was believed by U.S. authorities to have inspired acts of terrorism against the United States, including a fatal shooting at Fort Hood, Texas, and the December 25 bombing attempt to bring down an airliner flying to Detroit.”

    so which one is it? did he take up arms, or just inspire terrorist acts. seems like a big difference to me.

    Reply
  28. Eric

    October 2, 2011 at 9:32 am

    What a blasphemous post !

    You must not criricize The Great Leader !

    Don’t let his incoherent policies fill you with doubt, as there is a higher purpose that mere bloggers canot understand !

    Plus, criticizing Obama is RACIST !

    Reply

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