Remember That Plane Those Rebels Shot Down?

by lizard

It’s been a little over a month since Malaysian flight 17 was shot down from the skies over Eastern Ukraine. Considering the subsequent month featured a (ongoing) Israeli slaughter of Palestinians and a (ongoing) police/military occupation of Ferguson, Missouri, it is somewhat understandable that most Americans don’t have the mental capacity for continued reflection of a month-old atrocity that significantly escalated the warming Cold war between western governments and Russia.

Well, there are some people who are interested in following through on investigative efforts, like the Dutch:

Ten Dutch prosecutors and 200 police officers are involved in gathering and preparing the evidence for a criminal trial.

There are three main questions about the eventual MH17 trial: Where will it be conducted? What crimes will the accused be charged with? How long before we see the suspects in court?

The Dutch prosecutors are still in the initial stages of the criminal investigation, but they have already dismissed speculation that the trial could be held at the International Criminal Court in The Hague.

Pepe Escobar has a different take on who may be responsible, and is also more interested in what Malaysia may have to say about this geopolitical mess:

The Pentagon, with 20-20 vision over Ukraine, knows what happened. Russian intelligence not only knows what happened but offered a tantalizing glimpse of it in an official presentation, dismissed by the “West”. The best technical analyses point not to “Putin’s missile” – a BUK – but to a combination of R-60 air-to-air missile and the auto-cannon of an Su-25.

A reader led me to this fair assessment by former USAF and Boeing engineer Raymond Blohm: “With proper vectoring, a Su-25 need not be quite as fast as a Boeing 777 in cruise. It just has to get to a missile-firing position. Since the 777 was not maneuvering, it would be simple to pre-calculate when to get in a certain spot in the sky below the 777. From there, it’s the missile that has the speed and altitude capability to hit the 777. (The R-60 is a very capable missile.) After the missile takes out an engine, both the 777’s max speed and its max altitude are well within the Su-25 fighter’s speed & altitude capabilities. Then, the Su-25 can show off its cannon power.”

Follow the engine wreckage. Follow the cockpit wreckage. Follow the motive. One cannot even imagine the tectonic geopolitical plates clashing were the Kiev regime to be deemed responsible. It would be the vanishing point for the whole – warped – notion of the Empire of Chaos’s “indispensable” exceptionalism.

So as MH370 totally vanished, the MH17 story must also totally vanish. The Dutch and the British might eventually come out and hold a high-profile press conference telling the world what His Master’s Voice finally redacted. Still, one may count on certified, residual outrage, if not puzzlement, by a large number of grieving Dutch families. And one may count on certified outrage by Malaysia as a nation.

On August 7th, Malaysia just came right out and accused Kiev:

A Thursday article in the New Straits Times, Malaysia’s flagship English-language newspaper, charged the US- and European-backed Ukrainian regime in Kiev with shooting down Malaysian Airlines flight MH 17 in east Ukraine last month. Given the tightly controlled character of the Malaysian media, it appears that the accusation that Kiev shot down MH17 has the imprimatur of the Malaysian state.

The US and European media have buried this remarkable report, which refutes the wave of allegations planted by the CIA in international media claiming that Russian president Vladimir Putin was responsible for the destruction of MH17, without presenting any evidence to back up this charge.

The New Straits Times article, titled “US analysts conclude MH17 downed by aircraft,” lays out evidence that Ukrainian fighter aircraft attacked the jetliner with first a missile, then with bursts of 30-millimeter machine gun fire from both sides of MH17. The Russian army has already presented detailed radar and satellite data showing a Ukrainian Sukhoi-25 fighter jet tailing MH17 shortly before the jetliner crashed. The Kiev regime denied that its fighters were airborne in the area, however.

There is still no substantive evidence (save the pathetic reliance on sketchy social media accounts) being presented by US authorities backing up the immediate assertion it was Russian-backed rebels who shot down the plane, killing 298 people. And now there is no real mainstream media attention at all.

It doesn’t look good for the demonize Russia crowd. In the aftermath of this tragedy, James Conner threw a tantrum over our justified skepticism of the western propaganda narrative, calling JC and myself anti-American.

If one thing is certain, it’s that most Americans won’t think about something if it’s not being reported by MSM sources. We are on to other tragedies, like an American journalist being beheaded by ISIS. This ghastly execution is sure to increase public support for Obama’s new war in Iraq. Unfortunately the context of how jihadists were armed by US proxies in Syria to topple Assad, and then mutated into a fighting force capable of taking large parts of Iraq, won’t be a part of our national propaganda reporting.

Without the context of recent history, moving from tragedy to tragedy, Americans are a malleable population very vulnerable to state propaganda. It would be nice if that would change. I doubt it ever will.

  1. I guess I suspected form the beginning that Kiev was behind this, and since the current Kiev regime was birthed by Washington, that in truth Washington was behind it.

    KAL-007 was on a spy mission, with civilians put at risk. Never got to the bottom of that one. Lockerbie … was not blown up by Libyans, trust me, and of course, Never got to the bottom of that one. Iran Air Flight 655 was shot down in broad daylight by the Vincennes, and all the empire had to say was “Oops!” and the bastards got away with it! Never got to the bottom of that one.

    Airline disasters are old hat for this empire. Get used to not getting to eh bottom oh them.

  2. I don’t know Lizard.

    Why no mention of Russia’s own MSM, RT’s version of things – that the plane was shot down in an assignation attempt on Vlad? Or other claims in Russia’s MSM, that it was an attempt at mass murder of Russian citizens(the planes are the same color as Russian ones), or the leader of the Pro-Russian seperatists version – the claim that the plane was full of dead bodies to begin with? Regardless of Russian crackpot theory, they all point to Ukraine. Propoganda in MSM is not limited to the West.

    I think you overplay your hand when you say, “It doesn’t look good for the demonize Russia crowd”.

    The whole theory on “proper vectoring”, a missile, and then finally, a cannon, seems absurdly over complicated. And of course remains nothing but a discussion of the possible ignoring the probable.

    Lastly, Malaysia did not come out and accuse Kiev. A newspaper with a history of propaganda in support of Barisan Nasional – a right-wing conservative Islamic political party, did.

    If Fox News prints something, it does not follow that the United State’s position on an issue has been accurately portrayed.

    Perhaps the Dutch will provide sound reasoning and evidence pointing in the direction of the real culprits, because so far the evidence seems too poor to draw conclusions from.

    • JC

      Here, go read this analysis for some perspective.

      Thanks Pete, I fixed the link

      • petetalbot

        I couldn’t open the link, JC.

      • I only glazed over it as it does not seem worth much time.

        In defense of Lizard’s post, which criticizes evidence derived from a “pathetic reliance on sketchy social media accounts”, you link to an analysis that relies on what “locals heard”. (Says who? What Locals? etc)

        Constantly criticizing information released by the United States, you link to an analysis which largely relies on images and data provided by the Russian Government, as if that is any better.

        The first sentence of section 4 is one of a dozen red flags in this analysis.

        “Any system which emits electromagnetic energy can be tracked and geolocated with great precision. This is how your cell phone works”.

        This is such an oversimplified and false statement it tells me that the author doesn’t know what he/she is talking about. Instead of going into specifics, I’ll just throw this out there: Everything above 0° Kelvin emits electromagnetic energy.

        Again, the positions displayed on the maps in this analysis rely heavily on data provided by the Russians. Why should I take their data any more seriously. Cui bono?

        If you were to apply the same amount of criticism and skepticism to the Russian Media, and the anonymous sources you link to, as you do the the West’s MSM, you might achieve some balance, but that would require you to be consistent.

        Who wrote this analysis? Who pays THEIR bills? Who did they work for in the past? What organizations do they belong to? How many degrees of separation are there between them and those who would push Russian Propoganda? What are their political leanings? Come on, based on the dots you usually connect to draw conclusions, those things are REALLY important.

        Perspective? Connor was largely right. While you guys sit back and bitch about television and MSM and proclaim how “malleable” Americans are, you have neglected your own gullibility. Confirmation bias has set in, as is evident by the inconstancy in your epistemologies.

        • JC

          Must have hit a raw nerve.

          It was just a suggestion to read a different perspective. I don’t know how you draw a conclusion synonymous with Connor’s out of that.

          What I linked to was one narrative out of many competing to tell the story, sans the release of any “official” evidence. Your knee-jerk reaction to it and me tells me much more about your views, not that “Confirmation bias has set in, as is evident by the inconstancy in your epistemologies.”

          And the analysis is translated from Russian, and as such will be a rough read. If you can read Russian, follow the links below to the original version.

          If one cannot counter U.S. propaganda with Russian or others’ propaganda, and draw some intelligent, informed conclusions, then one will be forever stuck in one single fish bowl of propaganda and never get to the truth.

          The analysis came from The Vineyard of the Saker, which I’m sure you’ll dismiss as Russian propaganda. That’s fine. It also came with the Saker’s disclaimer:

          “Still, CDN [the analysis’s author] has specifically asked me to “please encourage readers to be critical of my analysis” which I indeed encourage you to do: his analysis does not pretend to be The One And Only Truth but instead a basis for discussion.”

          Nameless, are you interested in “discussion?” Or just discrediting individuals who read outside the margins of western propaganda? If you are only interested in having a discussion based on Washington D.C.’s narrative, then we are wasting our time here.

        • JC

          How about some Russ Baker on how to be a smart news consumer?

          It is imperative to ask inconvenient questions about a tragedy that has brought the world to the edge of a new and, indeed, very Cold War.

          We also think everyone needs to become a smart news consumer. That means taking into account the history of disinformation foisted upon the public. It means recognizing that while our instinct is to accept stories where the “other” is the bad guy, things may be more complicated. And it means reminding ourselves of the military-industrial complex that Dwight Eisenhower warned us about—and how our “public servants” operate under constant pressure from wealthy interests with a stake in particular outcomes…

          The overt assigning of blame to Moscow in the MH17 downing comports with the general trajectory of recent news coverage of Russian President Vladimir Putin, which portrays him and anyone associated with him in a negative light. This serves a purpose in an ongoing high-stakes battle characterized by such dramatic developments as Russia’s providing haven to the whistleblower Edward Snowden, and Putin’s role thus far in blocking a Western plan to remove Syria’s Assad, thereby thwarting what had been a successful streak of “regime changes” in the Middle East (Saddam and Qaddafi).

          Most important to understanding what’s at stake in Ukraine, however, is the struggle over natural resources.

          News media—traditionally poor at providing context—failed to note that the tragic MH17 downing came amid an unfolding trade war between Washington and Moscow for the lucrative European natural gas market. Or that the sanctions are strengthening the American market potential in the area…

          Anyone who wants to know what really happened in the MH17 tragedy needs to consider these theories and questions [posed above in this article], and indeed, any legitimate questions from either side of the Ukrainian conflict.

          Time and again, the world has seen open-ended wars erupt from fabricated or manipulated events. That potential exists today, in the fog of war that hangs ominously over an eastern Ukraine killing field.

          Got a problem with Russ Baker, too?

        • JC

          Or maybe some Robert Parry on the possibility that Ukrainians wanted to take out Putin, or pin the downing on federalists in SE Ukraine?

          U.S. intelligence analysts are weighing the possibility that the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was a botched attempt by extremists in the Ukrainian government to assassinate Russian President Vladimir Putin whose aircraft was returning from South America the same day, according to a source briefed on the U.S. investigation.

          What’s your take on the downing of MH17, Nameless? The State Department’s blaming Putin?

    • JC

      You think the Dutch are going to be sensible about this? No information has yet to be officially released from the investigators in the Netherlands, yet they have essentially tried, convicted and sentenced the Russians (warning, this is a quote from The New Straits Times again):

      Years of cooperation with Russian President Vladimir Putin ended with the shooting down of the airliner on July 17 with Dutch passengers accounting for two-thirds of the nearly 300 victims, said Louise van Schaik of Clingendael, the Netherlands Institute of International Relations, a leading think tank.

      “You see that since the downing of the airplane that has totally changed,” Van Schaik said in an interview. “The Netherlands will need to think deep and hard about its future energy relationship with Russia. The idea that we could do business with Putin even though he was a Machiavellian politician, is gone”…

      There has also been a change in the political tone since the crash, with Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte uttering threats against Moscow where once he was keen to talk up business links…

      But economic interests took a back seat after the crash.

      An emotional speech by Dutch Foreign Minister Frans Timmermans at the U.N. galvanised European nations behind tougher sanctions against Russia…

      So, do you really expect an impartial investigative result, given all of the propaganda build up by Dutch authorities?

      Oh, and yeah, sorry, I should have mentioned that the NST article was a Reuters reprint. My bad.

    • JC

      How about some Chris Lehmann at nsnbc on the “Serious Conflicts of Interest in MH17 Investigation led by Dutch Safety Board [DSB]”?

      …it is only an independent comparison of the data from the flight data recorder with Ukrainian and Russian radar data that can disclose whether there was an attempt to manipulate the outcome of an investigation and by whom.

      Geopolitical implications set beside, these are questions which should concern all frequent fliers and which according to a professional Danish pilot nsnbc consulted, concern a large number of his colleagues. The DSB’s reply to our questions about independent media’s access to the raw data was:

      “The first findings will be published in the preliminary report expected in a couple of weeks. All the information that is necessary and relevant to explain what the cause of the crash is, will be published in the final report of the investigation. The original sources will not be disclosed after publication (not after the publication of the preliminary nor after publication of the final report)”

      Not going to disclose the original data sources? How convenient…

  3. JC, it would be easy to inundate this post with links contrary to yours, as well as come up with some ad hoc conflicts of interest in your sources. As I pointed out, Russian imagery and data is just as likely to be corrupt. You are the one who pointed me to that analysis for some “perspective”. I gave you my quick summary of it and its utility for drawing conclusions.

    Also, I said “Perhaps the dutch……”. I didn’t endorse their investigation, or claim it to be superior, but, if I were to apply the same amount of skepticism to your sources as you are to the Dutch, I doubt their evidence would be in any worse shape than the “analysis” to which you linked.

    • JC

      So what is your leading theory on the downing of MH 17?

      There are many competing narrates, which is what I was trying to provide.

      • It is a dictum of science (and philosophy) that, in the lack of available corroborated or compelling evidence, the best conclusion to draw is ‘none’. That isn’t exactly what Lizard did here, and most certainly not what James Connor has done. To boldly demand that someone else put forth their “theory” is little more than a gotcha move, meant to silence a review of what evidence there is. It also shows a certain compulsion to be needlessly combative over a topic in which you both agree that the available evidence is “sketchy”.

    • Hey Nameless, I wonder if you could set aside your preconceived notions of who is good, who is evil, and just examine evidence, if your eyebrows might rise … Just a little? You’re a classic case of confirmation bias, the worst part of which is that you project it outward rather than look in the mirror.

  4. steve kelly

    The West tried to bait Russia into confrontation in Ukrainian, threatening to seize Russia’s warm-water port in Crimea. To prevent Russia from rolling into Ukraine (the entire region of Novorussia), the West threatened to enter Syria.

    “In war, truth is the first casualty.”
    Aeschylus, Greek tragic dramatist (525 BC – 456 BC). The MSM and fake alternative media outlets control the ‘truth’ perceived by its watchers and readers, which is why false flags work every time, time after time. But false flags are only one element of a constant propaganda campaign of big and little lies, almost everybody buys hook, line and sinker.

    It’s all lies, all the time. Don’t get hung up on this one too long, or you’ll miss a hundred more.

  5. lizard19

    Nameless Range, here is one big question: why hasn’t the Pentagon released its own satellite images? wouldn’t you think if they had images that corroborated their narrative that they would want to release them?

    • Both the Russians and Pentagon know what happened, and for their own reasons, are hush.

    • The Pentagon has not released a complete and official statement that says anything more than that the White House controls this story.

    • Lizard, I’m not sure why. But, if they did release their own satellite images, and those images corroborated their version of things, would their disclosure of images make any difference in your eyes? My guess would be no. I can only assume you would assert that they have just doctored the data, as I could just as easily assert that the Russians have.

      Maybe they don’t want to show their cards. From an image you can extract things like the location of the focal point, or other things the government is secretive about and has been for years – image resolution.

      One of the secrets of the modern world is how good resolution is on government satellites. I doubt those satellites would see a plane though. The more focused a satellite would be on the ground, the less likely it would see something 30000 feet above it. Satellites don’t work that way.

      • lizard19

        it would make a difference. in the initial days after the crash I was open to the idea of Eastern Ukrainian separatists having mistakingly shot down MH17. of course I thought there was a good possibility the coup government in Kiev had purposely pushed the flight path of MH17 over the separatists.

        I really don’t take at face value reports from other biased state media, but there is growing evidence implicating Kiev. that said, I realize I have biases, and they are usually on full display when it comes to how I perceive the increasingly desperate actions of US elites trying to keep their hands on the global spigot.

        people are free to counter what I write with their own opinions. thank you for sharing yours.

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