War Forever

September 10, 2014 in Montana

by lizard

And so it goes.

—Vonnegut

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20 Comments

  1. lizard19

    September 10, 2014 at 10:17 pm

    oh god, just saw the replay of O’s speech. some seriously creepy moments. the America he describes is a total fantasy.

    Reply
  2. JC

    September 11, 2014 at 12:35 am

    This is about all I have to say about that. Sometimes it’s just easier to go all out swede.

    Reply
  3. Big Swede

    September 11, 2014 at 6:21 am

    All long as we elect incompetent leaders we’ll have war. Political appeasement led to an early withdrawal, meaning a total evacuation threw red meat to the Code-Pinkos and kept the money stream flowing.

    For the first time I’m having thoughts that I want another attack. I want ISIS to hit the homeland, preferably from our southern border.

    Its a selfish notion but hey that’s what the world wants, self gratification and others people’s stuff.

    Reply
    • Mark Tokarski

      September 11, 2014 at 6:52 am

      Jesus Swede, that’s so incredibly uninformed and stupid. Think I’m gonna puke.

      Reply
      • Big Swede

        September 11, 2014 at 8:28 am

        Just like leaving Iraq prematurely for political reasons.

        Reply
        • Mark Tokarski

          September 11, 2014 at 8:40 am

          Swede: There is no interaction between American foreign policy and American electoral politics. They exist independent of each other. Kay?

          Reply
          • Big Swede

            September 11, 2014 at 10:14 am

            BS.

            Reply
          • Mark Tokarski

            September 11, 2014 at 10:22 am

            You always stop just short of knowing anything.

            You know where I am at. I am finished with you here.

            Reply
  4. Mark Tokarski

    September 11, 2014 at 6:58 am

    As I understand it now, and in retrospect, the coup d’état in Ukraine was meant to take Russia out of the Syria game, done because the Russians exposed the false flag chemical attack and projected power into the region last year.

    These people, this CIA, this Pentagon, are highly skilled and practiced criminals and liars. Obama is just another mouthpiece, a little more effective than Bush.

    Putin came to power in the aftermath of Kosovo, when the Russians had to sit on their hands as the US attacked Serbia without cause, and vowed that Russia would be rebuilt and would not be so humiliated again. Appears he’s lost another round. But there is future hope for democratic freedoms and the end of aggressive war in the Russian resurgence. Just not this time.

    Reply
  5. lizard19

    September 11, 2014 at 7:11 am

    My fellow Americans, we live in a time of great change. Tomorrow marks 13 years since our country was attacked. Next week marks 6 years since our economy suffered its worst setback since the Great Depression. Yet despite these shocks; through the pain we have felt and the grueling work required to bounce back — America is better positioned today to seize the future than any other nation on Earth.

    Our technology companies and universities are unmatched; our manufacturing and auto industries are thriving. Energy independence is closer than it’s been in decades. For all the work that remains, our businesses are in the longest uninterrupted stretch of job creation in our history. Despite all the divisions and discord within our democracy, I see the grit and determination and common goodness of the American people every single day — and that makes me more confident than ever about our country’s future.

    Abroad, American leadership is the one constant in an uncertain world. It is America that has the capacity and the will to mobilize the world against terrorists. It is America that has rallied the world against Russian aggression, and in support of the Ukrainian peoples’ right to determine their own destiny. It is America — our scientists, our doctors, our know-how — that can help contain and cure the outbreak of Ebola. It is America that helped remove and destroy Syria’s declared chemical weapons so they cannot pose a threat to the Syrian people — or the world — again. And it is America that is helping Muslim communities around the world not just in the fight against terrorism, but in the fight for opportunity, tolerance, and a more hopeful future.

    America, our endless blessings bestow an enduring burden. But as Americans, we welcome our responsibility to lead. From Europe to Asia — from the far reaches of Africa to war-torn capitals of the Middle East — we stand for freedom, for justice, for dignity. These are values that have guided our nation since its founding. Tonight, I ask for your support in carrying that leadership forward. I do so as a Commander-in-Chief who could not be prouder of our men and women in uniform — pilots who bravely fly in the face of danger above the Middle East, and service-members who support our partners on the ground.

    When we helped prevent the massacre of civilians trapped on a distant mountain, here’s what one of them said. “We owe our American friends our lives. Our children will always remember that there was someone who felt our struggle and made a long journey to protect innocent people.”

    That is the difference we make in the world. And our own safety — our own security — depends upon our willingness to do what it takes to defend this nation, and uphold the values that we stand for — timeless ideals that will endure long after those who offer only hate and destruction have been vanquished from the Earth.

    May God bless our troops, and may God bless the United States of America.

    —Barack Obama

    Reply
    • JC

      September 11, 2014 at 12:16 pm

      More from BO today:

      “Today, we join the European Union in announcing that we will intensify our coordinated sanctions on Russia in response to its illegal actions in Ukraine. I have said from the very beginning of this crisis that we want to see a negotiated political solution that respects Ukraine’s sovereignty and territorial integrity. Together with G-7 and European partners and our other Allies, we have made clear that we are prepared to impose mounting costs on Russia. We are implementing these new measures in light of Russia’s actions to further destabilize Ukraine over the last month, including through the presence of heavily armed Russian forces in eastern Ukraine. We are watching closely developments since the announcement of the ceasefire and agreement in Minsk, but we have yet to see conclusive evidence that Russia has ceased its efforts to destabilize Ukraine.

      We will deepen and broaden sanctions in Russia’s financial, energy, and defense sectors. These measures will increase Russia’s political isolation as well as the economic costs to Russia, especially in areas of importance to President Putin and those close to him. My Administration will outline the specifics of these new sanctions tomorrow.

      The international community continues to seek a genuine negotiated solution to the crisis in Ukraine. I encourage President Putin to work with Ukraine and other international partners, within the context of the Minsk agreement and without setting unreasonable conditions, to reach a lasting resolution to the conflict. As I said last week, if Russia fully implements its commitments, these sanctions can be rolled back. If, instead, Russia continues its aggressive actions and violations of international law, the costs will continue to rise.”

      Nothing but chest-thumping from an ineffectual patsy.

      Reply
  6. Eric

    September 11, 2014 at 11:41 am

    At a White House news conference on July 12, 2007, President Bush declared:

    “I know some in Washington would like us to start leaving Iraq now. To begin withdrawing before our commanders tell us we’re ready would be dangerous for Iraq, for the region and for the United States. It would mean surrendering the future of Iraq to al-Qaeda. It would mean that we’d be risking mass killings on a horrific scale. It would mean we’d allow the terrorists to establish a safe haven in Iraq to replace the one they lost in Afghanistan. It would mean we’d be increasing the probability that American troops would have to return at some later date to confront an enemy that is even more dangerous.”

    Maybe Barack Hussein Obama, a freshman Congressman from Illinois should have been paying attention.

    Reply
    • JC

      September 11, 2014 at 12:20 pm

      Quit being such a dumb fuck, Eric. I’m tired of giving you free history tutoring lessons:

      “The U.S.–Iraq Status of Forces Agreement (official name: Agreement Between the United States of America and the Republic of Iraq On the Withdrawal of United States Forces from Iraq and the Organization of Their Activities during Their Temporary Presence in Iraq) was a status of forces agreement (SOFA) between Iraq and the United States, signed by President George W. Bush in 2008. It established that U.S. combat forces would withdraw from Iraqi cities by June 30, 2009, and all U.S. forces will be completely out of Iraq by December 31, 2011. [emphasis added]”

      Reply
  7. Turner

    September 11, 2014 at 3:13 pm

    I’m not a fan of war. But I’m not a pacifist, either. I wonder under what circumstances war would be acceptable to people here. Would it have to be the physical presence of an invading force actually within our borders? Would it be the threat of an invasion?

    Since many of you think the press and the government are lying most of the time, how would you evaluate a claim that a threat of invasion exists? Is such a claim to be dismissed out of hand or are there circumstances that would cause you to accept it, at least tentatively, even though it comes from a source you’re suspicious of?

    Reply
    • lizard19

      September 11, 2014 at 3:49 pm

      well, some people might look at the coup of ’63 in these here United States and acknowledge that those elements who took control keep perpetual war going abroad while waging a simultaneous class war against the 99% here at home.

      I’m curious Turner, as a non-pacifist, when do you think violence is justified? should the oppressed in Ferguson take up arms against their racist police? should environmentalists derail coal trains? should people target CEO’s? how about hatching some assassination plans against the Koch Bros? how about Walmart employees hunting down and killing the Waltons. maybe a right-wing militia can take out George Soros.

      America is occupied territory, Turner. the invasion happened a long time ago. so what level of violence would you support in purging our soil of the evil oligarchs destroying our illusion of democracy?

      Reply
      • Turner

        September 11, 2014 at 4:15 pm

        There are situations in which I’d be violent. I mean the obvious ones, like someone trying to kill me.

        As a white man, I’ve been protected most of my life from systemic violence. The cops hardly ever hassled me or roughed me up.

        And, partially because of white privilege, I (a person of no more than average abilities) managed to become modestly “successful” in my life. Jobs were available to me. I got along well with others at work. I’ve been allowed to become comfortable without ever having to fight an uphill battle.

        If I were in a more vulnerable position, I might consider going after “the evil oligarchs,” or their minions. But, right now, I’m not oppressed enough to act out.

        Acts of war, whether we call them “war” or not, are hardly ever merely a matter of personal ethical choice. These acts grow out of some agency’s threat assessment and the further assessment of the best way to counter this threat.

        Reply
      • Mark Tokarski

        September 11, 2014 at 4:33 pm

        Funny, but I am not a pacifist either, not by any means, and I see countless occasions where war is justified self defense. The Iraqi resistance 2003 forward was justified, as was the defense of Serbia in 1999, the insurgency campaign to remove the corrupt government of South Vietnam during the 60’s, the rebellions against the Kiev Putsch in Ukraine going on right now, and the cross-border resistance among the Pashtun people of Pakistan and Afghanistan against American aggression. It is long established that wars of self-defense are justified.

        If you’re asking then what wars that the United States have entered into have been justified, the easy answer is the Pacific War from 1941 forward, though it is not commonly known that the US went to extreme measures to provoke that war.

        Beyond that, I cannot think of one war of the post-war era that was morally justified from the aggressor’s side, the U.S. That, and I am not even close to being a pacifist. I believe in self defense.

        Reply
  8. steve kelly

    September 11, 2014 at 3:31 pm

    Hard to answer a hypothetical. Since I cannot recall circumstances that led to an “acceptable” U.S. military invasion/occupation in my lifetime, it seems like an odd question.

    There are scores of examples of overt and covert military abuse leading inevitably to regime change over the decades following WWI and WWII. It is our policy is it not?

    My first criteria for agreeing to war would be a leader committed enough to lead troops into battle, and I’m not talking about leading in words, but deeds. I want that person present in the theatre of war. Leave the VP home, in a safe place, if something goes wrong.

    Reply
    • JC

      September 11, 2014 at 4:45 pm

      “a leader committed enough to lead troops into battle”

      Including their sons and daughters, and the sons and daughters of the oligarchs.

      To go to war? A President/Congress should:

      1) reinstitute the draft, so that war is not fought with mercenaries, but with a cross-section of our population;

      2) Follow constitutional provisions for declaration of war (Article One, Section 8 of the Constitution);

      3) Act accordingly to the War Powers Resolution of 1973

      4) Convince the public that war is essential to protecting the immediate security of the borders of our country (and I’m not talking about propaganda here).

      In addition to that, I would never support any war that follows on Bush/Obama’s doctrine of preemptive war and other atrocities.

      I would never support a new war until we have a Congress committed to oversight, including investigation and prosecution of those who committed torture.

      I would not support war until the provisions of the Patriot Act have been rescinded that restrict our freedoms guaranteed by our Constitution.

      I would not support war as long as our security state continues to abuse us with unconstitutional surveillance.

      In short, I am anti-war and an isolationist in regards to foreign policy. Our country has, and continues, to demonstrate the worst characteristics of those actions of countries and their leaders that we publicly deplore.

      I have come to this point due to the continuation of American hegemony, loss/abuse of Constitutional freedoms and rights, exacerbation of wealth inequity and social injustice (including the development of a police state where the military has turned local police forces into para-militaries by arming them with combat equipment), use of proven propaganda techniques and manipulation of the press; etc. ad naseum.

      In short, America is a rogue state that has no moral right to impose itself on the rest of the world. That moral right has disappeared over the last several generations. And I will never vote for another democrat in a national election until they address the points I have listed above.

      Should we defend ourselves? At the border. Wikipedia lists 70 wars (and this doesn’t include covert campaigns or assistance to other countries at war like Ukraine) our country has been involved in since independence. I’d say that probably 80–90% of them were unnecessary.

      I, for one, am not proud of our nation’s warmongering.

      Reply
  9. JC

    September 12, 2014 at 1:44 pm

    Putin, at a press conference today:

    “But I cannot fathom what these latest sanctions are actually about. Perhaps it is not to someone’s liking that the process has taken a peaceful turn? I have already said many times that our Western partners pushed things towards an anti-constitutional coup in Kiev, and then supported the military operations in southeast Ukraine, and now, just when the situation has taken a turn towards a peaceful settlement, they are taking steps that practically aim to disrupt this peace process. Why are they doing this?

    I can’t help but think the seditious thought that no one actually cares about Ukraine itself. They are just using Ukraine as an instrument to shake up international relations. Ukraine is being used as an instrument and has been made hostage to the desire of some players on the international stage to revive NATO say, not so much even as a military organisation, but as a key instrument in US foreign policy, in order for the US to consolidate its satellites and scare them with a threat from abroad. But if this is the case, this is a real shame because it means that Ukraine has essentially become hostage to another’s interests. I do not see anything good in this practice.”

    Seditious, indeed.

    Reply

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