A Cup of Coffee

by lizard

The frequency of my posting here is going to lessen a bit as I prepare to move out of a house I’ve lived in for 13 years. So before I wade into the detritus of accumulation, packing and purging the space where we started our family, here’s a quick post about the potential power of a cup of coffee.

Over at Piece Of Mind, in the comments of a post titled Free thought in a land of Latter Day Saints, JC invited Swede to coffee and I’m going to try and expound on why I think that matters.

First I’m going to pick on Mark a little, but I don’t think he’ll mind. In ruminating over the modern-day oversoul, Mark opens with this:

Life is interesting. I don’t know how to get that across to people who are living down below, down in that place where truth is handed you on a platter, where nothing is understood until explained by a two-dimensional talking head possessed of a one-dimensional brain. I wonder what it was like before television.

Those of us blogging to understand, sometimes insufferably assured of our own special insights (I include myself) should take every opportunity to step away from the two-dimensional screens and engage in a more direct, meaningful way with our world.

There is no medium that is not in some way manipulated by forces and motivations that are difficult to discern.

Which brings me to a cup of coffee and the following exchange I thought worth highlighting:

STEVE KELLEY: And herein lies the problem. In a world of framers, debate has effectively lost all meaning.

BIG SWEDE: I would offer that debate has never been so prolific as it is now. In the past you couldn’t comment on a news article in the paper, there was no blogs, News shows seldom brought in opposing views.

JC: People used to debate the newspaper over coffee or a meal at home, work, or at an establishment. A decent local paper provided a common frame for debate. That pretty much has disappeared. If you think that commenting on blogs (faceless and impersonal) replaces the human interaction of the last century, I’d have to disagree. While blog commenting has some good features, it lacks much of what a good old fashioned cup of coffee with friends debating the newspaper over breakfast at a local cafe.

Next time I’m in Billings, or you in Missoula, you and I should sit down for a cup of coffee. My treat.

BIG SWEDE: Face to face is indeed different, no spell checking and quick thinking responses.

I appreciate your offer JC. A conversation with you would be interesting and civil. But I enjoy my anonymity even tho some have an idea of who I am and where I ranch.

How we humans communicate seems to degrade the farther away we move from presence, from accountability. What gives me hope in my day to day work is the human interactions I have with the people that operate within systems I don’t think anyone is really happy with. I have found people do change their minds when presented with information, but how it’s presented is crucial. I am most successful when talking directly to someone. Even conversations over the phone are significantly less impactful.

There are so many stories I wish I could tell but they are not my stories to tell. And there is so much more all of us can do to recognize that we are humans existing in a finite world for a very short time.

Maybe it starts with a cup of coffee.


  1. If I get to the end of it and still decide to post it, this will likely be a long comment. I hope you will forgive that. Much of it will likely be anecdotal, and I hope you will forgive that as well.

    The ‘cup of coffee’ meeting can be helpful, but not always. What it relies on are people who see ideas within context of relationship, and those folks are sadly rare, more numerous among bloggers and blog commenters for certain. Until he left for Texas, Craig Sprout was the longest term blogger in the state of Montana. He began as a wargarbler, but lost much standing with the peeps when he decided that using his head was better than just holding a party line and calling out for terrorist (Muslim) genocide.) I became involved with Craig when we disagreed about anthropogenic climate change. We disagreed strongly, and possibly continue to until this day. The one thing that he and I and many agreed about is that we needed to get together and know each others as people. At that time, there had never been a blogger’s meetup in Montana, so we had one in my back yard. Everyone brought in their own agendas, personal as they were, and the ideological differences of course took a back seat to just getting to know each other. One attendee just wanted us to like her new boyfriend. Another brought a great sense of humor (Thank you, Randy.) One attendee, a stated Randian Objectivist, called us on the phone as opposed to showing up. Craig showed off his greatest treasure, his beloved wife and family. What respect we could have for each other was earned and we all parted friends, online if not the deeper meaning of what a *true friend” is supposed to be according to the modern Facilebook definitions. Whether I ever see him again or not, I will always consider Craig a friend.

    What’s interesting, and not for the last time, is that as a liberal blogger I incurred the wrath of many of Montana’s conservative online denizens, most especially in the Missoula area. They all had a get-together to talk about what an awful human I was. Few could understand how Craig might think I wasn’t the communist enemy (or just a stupid lefty stooge in the case of one of them.) Not too many years later, Missoula’s lefties got together and had the same bitch fest about me. Speaking far too personally, the latter hurt me much more, because a blogger I had great respect and admiration for told y’all that I had “threatened her”, when that stands against everything I know from experience and hold dear. For what should be obvious reasons, as some of you folks ask what’s wrong with me, I ask what the hell is wrong with Missoula? But in both cases, the coffee clutch worked to spec. Biases were confirmed and people left feeling more comforted by what they saw as ‘truth’.

    Which brings me to Mark. For reasons I and no one else will clearly understand, he trolled my website. This was after he and I had met over coffee. He somehow decided that I was an awful human, and frankly, thats fine with me. After getting called to the carpet for his obvious ruse, he spent well over a year telling any who would listen what a sociopath I was. For no reason apparent other than repetition, many people did listen to him. So let me ask a pertinent question that any who lurk online should be asking constantly: do you honestly think that disagreement is a sign of mental illness or dysfunction? If you think about it, certainly Mark has exceptional skills at drawing co-relations if not correlations, but he truly sucks at any understanding of other human beings. He folds that lack of understanding into his mythologies, but never really questions it. As I indicated earlier, the coffee clutch works only to the degree that one is concerned with relations and can back away from the urge to establish foundation for ideology.

    I’ve never met you, Liz. We began our conflict because you desired what was morally right above the law, and sought to use it as a weapon against the “Obama regime”. I defend, and always will, the Constitution which establishes that district court judges cannot supersede the mandate of the Commander In Chief, or the will of our elected Representatives, poor as they often are. I disagree with many people, but most areoften selective ab out when I’m ‘nice enough’ about it. I agree with you and Mark vastly more than either of you see, and certainly more than either you are often willing to admit. We, you and I, would be good candidates for a coffee meeting, or a bowl meeting actually. One thing I have considered for years now is this, there are those who can meet and learn, and then those on whom such participation is wasted. Example, I’ve gone to Dillon and met Norma Duffy. It was very civil, much to my surprise. She didn’t act out and we agreed on many things. Less than a week later, she again accused me of stupidity and misogyny out of the blue in a completely unrelated context. I apparently wrote something she didn’t agree with, or actually sought to have a voice at all. At the same event, I met Turner. Mark disrespects him vastly too much. He is older and extremely inquisitive. There is no generic “meet and find importance”. It depends on what the individual brings to the table.

    Steve Kelly contacted me when the Montana wolf de-listing was going down. Having spent many hours considering the coffee solution, I recognized that little would be gained by such a ‘congenial’ meetup. When JC made his offer to Swede, it was fairly obvious to some of us outsider folk that there would never be such a greet. I will be happily surprised if it ever happens, and hope that it might. Many of us would likely benefit from meeting Craig Moore, but certainly not all. That “How we humans communicate seems to degrade the farther away we move from presence” is a far cry from how far we are from “accountability”. Those are not the same thing, in any respect.

    Good luck on your move, Lizard.

    • Actually Rob you had a lot to do with my decision to stay hidden.

      ” Craig received threats against his family and then moved to Texas”.

      Was what you typed Jan 13th.

      That and what happened to another conservative blogger, The MT Misanthrope went thru.

      • That is what happened, though I am unconvinced that the two actions were causally related. Most of us online at the time deeply reviled and strongly rejected the individual who threatened the Sprout family.

        I am unaware of what happened to the Montana Misanthrope. Could you clarify? I should point out that when my meat-space job was threatened by a Montana Representative, that was exactly when Mark Tokarski chose to troll me. So, as something of a historian of the Montana online, please tell us the circumstances concerning the MT Misanthrope. I would actually and honestly like to hear the tale.

        • Huge anal intrusive tax audit.

          • Mentioned in his last post that he thought it was brought on by his conservative stance on issues.

            Quit blogging when the audit commenced.

          • I am so happy not to be paranoid!

  2. Rob, I saved your comment to me wherein you admitted that my “trolling” of you was in fact your doing, a setup, a trap. That’s all I ever wanted, that admission, which you gave me in s snarling manner, teeth bared. It was the “trap” aspect coupled with the emotions which so often seem disingenuous (as here) that made me retaliate with the year-long Monty battle, the name you used when you pretended I had trolled you. It was infuriating, and so calculated.

    But I’ve long forgiven you. We all have our failings. Mine are legion, but mental illness and dysfunction are not among them. Has the wolf, the predator resurfaced? Why do you do this? This whole post above has the tone of a depressed man, as the one you wrote when the Broncos lost recently. You seem to be riding low. (Hint: Sports will always disappoint.)

    • Mark, if you have such a comment, then repost it. I’ve asked you before and you’ve never done it, likely because you have no such thing. This is why no meeting between you and I would ever have any value. You pick and choose your understanding of other’s sarcasm, wisdom, concern, desperation, joy or honesty. You think yourself wise, but really, you are just often a bad human being, humans being a social animal.

  3. Mark, if you are at all capable of it, let’s you and I deal with reality. What has pissed most people off at their own websites is you and I arguing about our personal bullshit, bullshit that honestly you caused. I’ve no interest in living the past. You can’t prove anything you claim, which is the true tell of a conspiracy egoist. You win. So I’m out. My earlier comment will stand for what it is, and your whine will stand as unsubstantiated challenge. Enjoy your delusion of having an entourage … I have no will to respond beyond this point, depressed as I am …

    • You did open this can of worms. I checked my Monty file, and your admission is not in there. So all I have is that memory, “Finally, he comes clean.” People will believe or not believe based on their other impressions. I realize that those who I have offended at one time or another will trust your story here. As with politics, reasoning has little to to with beliefs. Sublime impressions rule.

      But look what you did at the outset. At that time your website was heavily trafficked and highly regarded, and I was a newbie, did not have a blog, and you pulled that stunt. Why, I wondered? Why? How did I offend you? (I did not figure out until 2010 what you had done, as I did not understand blogging well, little ins and outs with screen grabs and IP addresses and all of that.)

      And now here, where traffic is high, a very popular website, you’re doing the same stunt again. Why? You could easily have placed your rant at your site, but since you’ve given up writing about issue politics, people aren’t going there. So you came here. This is calculated, and again I am the target for a Wulfgar take down.

      All I can think of is that I’ve offended you to such a degree that you’ve been seething, and in a depressed state chose to lash out.mI can even spot the comments that set you off, one at my place, one here. And the same thing must have happened back in 2006 or so when you first pulled this stunt. You’re taking me down. I think I know you pretty well.

      I can do that all by myself, man. I don’t need you for this. Get some rest. (I’ll reprint Rob’s original take down from 2006 at my place for anyone interested. The calculations behind the feigned emotions coupled with the gaming aspect of it were what first caused me to be concerned as to the nature of the wolf in Wulfgar.)

  4. Eric

    I remember the old days well – and when Rob figured out a way to be a sleuth, and figured out who the troll was under his bridge I learned something.

    We had a bloggers bash in Billings years ago, and it was a nice way to pass a couple of hours. Ed Kemmick’s CITY LIGHTS ruled the blogosphere back then, and while we could always disagree about politics, but we would meet socially over at schools functions, etc, or anywhere else, and Ed was great company. Neat guy.

    While the blogs still had a following, I tipped the scales to the right in a big way with WRIM, and I had no idea just how nasty some people could get – they were doing impersonations of bloggers they didn’t like faster than I could delete them, and even posted up Rob’s contact phone numbers, etc.

    I think if we got together every past/present blogger in Montana we could have a heck of a party. Forget the coffee – I’ll have a brewski !

  5. steve kelly

    “After all, a man’s detractors work for him tirelessly and for free. It’s as good as being banned in Boston. But as I’ve said, I can understand their hostile attitude toward environmental change, having once shared it. Theirs is the customary human reaction when confronted with innovation: to flounder about attempting to adapt old responses to new situations or to simply condemn or ignore the harbingers of change — a practice refined by the Chinese emperors, who used to execute messengers bringing bad news. The new technological environments generate the most pain among those least prepared to alter their old value structures.” http://www.nextnature.net/2009/12/the-playboy-interview-marshall-mcluhan/

    Coffee anyone?

  6. lizard19

    interesting comments. there are bits of blog history I was not aware of. it’s too bad scabs on old wounds are being ripped off, that was certainly not the intention of the post.

    people can be silenced in a variety of ways, and it appears there have been some semi-serious repercussions for some bloggers. it reinforces my decision to write under a pseudonym. there are petty people willing to try and do harm IRL for the opinions expressed online.

    it makes the prospect of having a cup of coffee with any participants here seem a little risky.

  7. Craig Moore

    For Mark. No doubt my comment at your blog will be dust binned. Here it is here.

    Craig Moore says:
    January 18, 2015 at 1:28 pm

    It is very dishonest of you to show my comment in this post when I commented in a different post. In the other post you claimed you were going to leave the issue alone with no further comment. Sorta makes a lie all the way around for your deception in removing that post, showing my comment in your new post, and now claiming you are going to make a hash of it going forward. Claiming I am defending Rob is ridiculous. He and I don’t get along and we aren’t buds. This new “low” by you gives a pattern to your behaviour, Monty.

    • Craig Moore

      Bingo! You are something else Mark. Now deleting both of my comments. Above you said to Rob, But I’ve long forgiven you. We all have our failings. Mine are legion, but mental illness and dysfunction are not among them. Apparently that was just another lie for you to go Defcon 5 at your blog when the matter was presumably closed. How much more dysfunctional can you possible get?

      • Craig, you complained that I left your comment there after I changed the content of the post, and now you’re complaining that I took it down? What now, sir?

        People are never honst about real motives. Yours are this: You’re pissed that I think you are a stupid man.

        • Craig Moore

          Monty, I am not pissed. Just in shock over you very public lie and deception. Seems quite consistent with your 2012 dustup with Rob at CG’s. Go ahead and have your embarrassing, self-righteous snit. You said you were over it, and clearly, you aren’t. Then you withdrew your first post at your blog and substituted the second where you mashed in my comments that were not responding to your hate filled second post. Can’t get much more deceitful than that. BTW, Why do you need to recreate the wheel? Just point readers to the CG discussion. http://mtcowgirl.com/2012/04/13/enough-said/#comment-50401 People can make up their own minds as to how you mangle the truth.

          I have never cared, and continue not to care, what you think of me. After all these years and you have learned nothing. I don’t need your approval. Never have.

          Your air of superiority has quite the stench attached to it. Perhaps you have some rhetorical lilac bouquet spray to help yourself out.

          • Good grief, Craig, it was all there for you. What the hell is wrong with you?

            Everything is there, but part of the beauty of Kailey’s treachery is that when you protest his dishonesty, it reflects on you. Can’t wrestle with a pig.

            That is calculated. The man don’t know politics or living happy, but he does know gaming strategy,

            • Craig Moore

              Your ego has no boundaries. Reality is quite far afield from your grasp. Perhaps your delusions will keep you warm at night.

            • My ego is well bounded. I know my strengths and weaknesses. Answering you here is a weakness. Reality is evidence, continuity, connections, but not words of authority figures and self-proclaimed experts. I awake early each morning with clarity and certainty, and retire each evening with doubt and concern. People often confront me with arguments that derail my confidence. You are not one of those people.

              Keep commenting, as each time you do the pile driver will introduce you to a few more earth worms. Eventually you’ll be eye-to-eye with Kailey himself.

              • Craig Moore

                Monty, you wrote to Robert, But I’ve long forgiven you. We all have our failings. Mine are legion, but mental illness and dysfunction are not among them. I have learned through my long life that before someone forgives another, first they must forgive them self for their own transgressions. You are quite the tortured soul with unfinished business that starts with a conversation with the reflection in the mirror. Admitting your personal failings revealed here would be a first step in your reclamation.

              • What is it with you? You think I write but don’t think? Self reflect? Those are my words. Of course I had forgiven, been welcoming and even ingratiating with him, as this whole Monty episode with him, however ugly, well, we have to move forward. He brought it up again. Not me. I am going to try to crush it once and for all, and put it at an end. I know what he did, how he did it, the calculations that occupied his devious mind. He’s not sick or anything like that, just a man without any notion of right or wrong, a gamer, making his way as best he can. Life is tough, even tougher when you’re stupid.

                Step out of the way. Why are you running interference?

    • Craig, we often vehemently disagree based on tactics and we are not buds. But you are one person I would like to meet over a beer, coffee or at the range.

  8. Give it rest, Mark. I’m busy watching a bunch of union employees take great pride in their efforts, working for a publicly owned concern. Go Packers!

    • Rob, I am taking you down in all your phoniness in the morning. But here is something to consider: One of us is an honest man, the other not.

      You are dishonest, calculating and treacherous. You know this. I know this. You know that I know this about you. You don’t care. This is for you a game, nothing more, to be your deceitful self but not have it be apparent to any but your victims, and then only too late.

      You know I am an honest man. the concept means nothing to you, you wonder why it matters, why people care about such matters. It matter to me, and tomorrow, first thing, I expose what you did, and how you did it.

      • Craig Moore

        If you were honest in the slightest, you would have let this discussion drop as you said you were going to do above and repeated in the first post at your blog before you took it down and substituted your hate rant.

        • Your name then is … Rob? Your opinion matter because …. ? Craig, you’ve been hanging around the blogs for years, and you rarely come to mine because you don’t read so well and get your fingers burned if you comment. My traffic is low, less than 200 hits a day. Quality hits, I hope. Continue your practice of avoiding me, as I will always eat your lunch.

          • Craig Moore

            If you ate my lunch, you would have left your original post, left my comments, and responded with a take down. Instead, you rewrote that post as a hate filled rant and removed my comments. It appears that you knee-jerked when I linked the CG discussion and you went DEFCON 5. When someone steps on your ego, you reveal you are quite the shrieking midget or the wicked witch that has water tossed on her.

            • What nonsense. You complained that I changed the post and left your comments. So I took down the comments. They are back now. Happy! Or do you wish to keep complaining?

              • Craig Moore

                Are you going to restore your original post so that the comments make sense, or continue your deception?

              • I think I will continue to allow your comments to make no sense.

              • Craig Moore

                May Jesus have mercy on your troubled soul. Luke 23:34

              • Aye, carumba.

  9. JC

    Sometimes asking someone to coffee is just that: asking someone to coffee. I do it all the time in meatspace, and enjoy it thoroughly. My intentions are sincere, though some may read what they will into my cyberspace persona, and think otherwise. Thanks for the post, liz!

    • I urge you have coffee with Kailey. I did. I made my judgement. Make yours.

  1. 1 What Rob Kailey did, how he did it, and possibly even why he did it | Piece Of Mind

    […] with him ever. Life is too short for such people. But if he attacks me again in the future as he did at 4&20 today, I will be able to refer people back to this post, and expose his utter depraved […]

  2. 2 A post about Rob Kailey, what Rob Kailey did, how Rob Kailey did it, and why Rob Kailey did it | Piece Of Mind

    […] hand on him, not terribly difficult, he pulls out his Monty and pisses on me. And he did it again at 4&20 at 7:03 P.M. on January 17, the fourth paragraph of a long and boring comment: Which brings me to Mark. For reasons I and no […]




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