by lizard

I ran across this very disconcerting story in The Tennessean: Group Warns EPA Ready to Increase Radioactive Release Guidelines.

The EPA is preparing to dramatically increase permissible radioactive releases in drinking water, food and soil after “radiological incidents,” according to Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility.

What is termed a guidance that EPA is considering – as opposed to a regulation – does not require public airing before it’s decided upon.

The nuclear catastrophe in Japan just keeps getting worse, with the now almost inevitable likelihood of being worse than Chernobyl, which had roughly 180 tons of fissile material versus the over 1,100 tons of material at the Japanese facility.

A phenomenal blogger from Germany has been one of the best sources of information I’ve found. Check it out (you might have to scroll up to get to the top of the post).

With this kind of disaster involving a powerful industry, why should we believe anything from industry cheerleaders, like our president? His performance during BP’s gulf disaster, not to mention his administration subsequently resuming issuing permits for more deep sea drilling despite the fundamental design flaw of the blowout protectors, (covered superbly by Rachel Maddow) seems to indicate Obama is more concerned with protecting corporations and their profits (read campaign donations) than he is about protecting Americans.

At least we have a new war to keep our mental terrain occupied, because this slow-motion nuclear catastrophe is a real bummer.

  1. Ingemar Johansson

    Ozone is also a major concern.

    The EPA wants to tighten the already stringent standard on ozone. What the EPA has proposed is to change the standard from 75 ppb to a range of 60-70 ppb. Here’s a clue as to how preposterous that is – Yellowstone National Park has 67 ppb of ozone as we speak. So yes, Yellowstone would go from an “attainment” area to a non-attainment area. That means it gets shut down until it comes into compliance.

  2. Ingemar Johansson

    Maybe you (and others) shouldn’t be going bananas over radiation levels.

  3. Ingy,

    This is the wrong forum to argue anything having to do with radiation, nuclear power or anything to do with nuclear anything. Emotion outweighs intellect here and I have given up even attempting to discuss nuclear subjects here. years of working as a nuclear reactor for creds and still, everything I have to say on the subject is dismissed out of hand. You are wasting your time unless you are just trying to tweek noses.

  4. lizard19

    emotion can certainly trump intellect, and this deteriorating situation in Japan seriously freaks me out.

    combine that with my significant lack of knowledge about the commercial nuclear industry, and my increasing suspicion that the extent of what’s happening is being downplayed for purely greed-driven reasons, and this move by the EPA appears ominous.

    so if anyone has any information or sources they’d like to share, that would certainly be more appreciated than nose-tweaking and referencing old butt-hurts.

  5. GregR says:
    February 16, 2011 at 9:31 am

    “I love it when nuclear physics and understandable analogies intersect’.


    Even thou, Ingemar, impertinent with his denigrating demeanor – probably doesn’t realize ‘how’ impertinent, never the less i went to the site he pitched and read the article… its substance is thin but interesting… The point Ing, is, any radiation is too much; Bananas and peanut butter not withstanding, for now… i rather enjoy them. But i’m done with Brazil Nuts!
    There is some fine comments in that link, Inge, pitched. like the first quote.

    now my post post

    Thank you very much for the German Blogger link, Lizard! its very comprehensive.
    this link within that link:

    When has Big Biz ever told the real truth??? … from Kellogg, Idaho to Anaconda to Quinlan, to More Doctors Smoke Camels than any other cigarette, Wall Street, Enron, is there a pharmaceutical that hasn’t been toast toast and toasted … the list of these lying mafia corporations is endless.
    The preponderance of evidence strongly suggests any radiation is too much, Sooooo, what we deal in is ‘tolerances’ and no escape from responsibility or accountability is to good or too much in eclipsing or circumventing the honorable moral thing to do, ain’t that right Bhopal??? . Capitalism loses Profit capitulating to anything other than Profit! which is unacceptable in the Profit/Stockholder=ExploitExploitExploit model.
    Big Biz Always Always Always lies to protect it’s Exploited Profits. Capitalism does not give a rodents rectum for your health – only Profit.
    You find one website with some info Inge, and think you’re going to stifle our Evidence – (but i didn’t see where in the article it challenges the axiom any radiation is too much)
    Hang in there Inge i think you’re starting to get it – challenge the status qua. Challenge is the root of Science. Every other scientist pits his answers to a riddle in a scientific method that All Scientists adhere to… There’s no faking it in science; depose the premise… at any rate it’s not like a Gang of smart guys finding a solution looking for a problem.
    It’s not like that in the world of Science. Ego/Integrity is a very very very important. And it’s important to understand that Corporate scientists, their morals and integrity are owned. – and HOPEFULLY the Government/Gov’ment Scientist has the courage of their convictions based in absolute truth and honesty to the best of their ability to Tell it like it is.
    i have strong connections to the science world and unless tyrannically subjected to Executive restrictions, Government Scientists work for the people.
    If you will examine the Mining Minerals Mgmt Service of the US Gov’ment and see how Private Enterprise Capitalist Pigs Circumvented the safety features – these are the worst form of corporate/predatory-capitalist virulence there is and it thrives…

  6. Ingemar Johansson

    Ok Liz, how ’bout this one.

    Maybe the govt. listened to Ann Coulter.

  7. Ingemar Johansson

    And here’s where you can get your overdoses in Boulder MT>

    Quote: “With colorful names like the Sunshine Health Mine, Free Enterprise, Earth Angel, Radon Tunnel, and the Merry Widow, the mine shafts tout radon levels as much as 175 times the federal safety standard for houses. Yet, visitors claim miraculous recoveries and disease remissions in the damp, cool passages. Some have arrived in wheelchairs, then walked out on their own.

    The health mines opened in the early 1950’s when little was understood about the health and hazard aspects of atomic radiation. One claim is that the gas stimulates the nerves and helps the human body heal itself.”

    • lizard19

      i would dip into my savings just to buy you a ticket to Japan.

      • JC

        Yeah, maybe he could go to Fukushima and help mop up. His body could use some nerve stimulation and healing…

        Of course, when one doesn’t understand the difference between emissions in a radon mine, and plutonium particulates lodged in the lungs, no amount of time in the Sunshine mine will heal the ability of the human mind to understand science.

  8. The distraction to periodic exposure to a Nobel gas is unhelpful to the discussion of prolonged exposure to radioactive isotopes is a tactic the Right commands over us more passive people on the Left.

    Stand up to bullies or die.

  9. He’s a troll. i thought there was hope – exposing his intellect by hyping Ann Coulter… last straw.
    i too would pitch $$ in to send Inge to Fukushima for some skin and lung therapy.
    i think the only good he serves is to focus our attention on the asinine, stupid, two cell thinking from the T-klaners ‘n Repugs

    • and thanks for the Periodic Exposure link Larry.

    • lizard19

      ingy is a known commodity who gets his jollies by posting vacuous one-liners and youtube vids. usually i don’t mind, but when the intent to derail the conversation early in a thread happens, then i will exercise my discretion as a moderator.

      really i’m more interested in some of the new “names” popping up, like “gut check” telling pbear to knock off calling out triangulating douches like Messina, because it indicates some of us non-partyliners are beginning to piss off the party establishment. if you can’t control the content, like the cowgirls do, then try and disrupt the conversation.

      i expect an increase in mocking new-name trolls trying to derail threads, engage in spurious personal attacks, and generally trying to stain this blog because, contrary to kram’s depiction of this being a “silly blog”, it has, i am told, a decent reach.

      anyway, that blog i linked to, Moon of Alabama, has experienced similar smear campaigns around issues like the green movement in Iran a few years ago. the trolls who descended were good at what they did, and caused the host enough stress that he closed up shop for over a year.

      the best way to deal with trolls or trollish behavior is to ignore it. but that’s easier said than done.

      • Thank you Liz, i was seriously wondering why anyone would say ‘knock it off’ concerning the slimeball Messina, and i saw another name Fleishman another Rat like Messina just as bad.
        i saw a vid on how the Rethugs work the T-klaner mentality…organizing them to up-end blogs like this and where ever. To do just as this Ingy is doing – obfuscate and derail – the Ann Coulter vid was the limit. i didn’t watch it – no one should have time in their life to watch or listen to this frump.
        i will try not to post to Ingy’s insanity.

        • Ingemar Johansson

          Ya know where I pulled the Coulter vid? The Huffington Post.

          Hardy a harbinger of conservatism.

          • JC

            “harbinger of conservatism”???

            Gee, have you forgotten who Arianna Huffington is? One-time republican and popular conservative columnist. Newt Gingrich and Bob Dole supporter in the 90’s.

            Her recent swing to the left with Huffington Post has been tempered by her sell-out to AOL. That sale revealed how much she still has the corporate raider mentality instilled in her. Look to the Post to swing back to the center as a moderate media outlet more concerned with making a profit than to push an ideology.

            Which brings me back to “harbinger of conservatism.” Huffington’s merger with AOL is most definitely a harbinger of her–and presumably the Huffington Post’s–move back to a more conservative ideology.

            Thanks for pointing that out Ingy.

      • the best way to deal with trolls or trollish behavior is to ignore it.

        Sorry, Liz, but I disagree with that. I mean no offense, but you are wrong here. Trolls invariably begin with their weakest attacks. Ignoring them invites stronger stuff. It’s encouragement, no lie. That is especially true if you announce that ignoring them is the right method of remaining beyond reaction, while actually reacting.

        A few suggestions:

        If’n you have a real BIG blog (thousands of readers a day) then ignoring trolls will be effective because they will get drowned out in the flood of comment, or refuted with absolute snark. I’m not trying to be insulting in telling you that 4 & 20 ain’t quite there yet.

        So, how does one react without reacting? Delete the comment and all follow up which mentions the comment. Erase it. Trolls hate nothing worse than not having a voice. Erase the voice completely. It didn’t happen. They will tire of screaming into the void.

        Reason with them through agreeable disagreement. In truth, I’ve never found this to work. But finding common ground to entice a troll into community involvement has been known to work before. If that’s the tactic, then the “t” word should never ever be mentioned. If you wish to do this, then keep in mind it’s fundamental value. Trolls want to disrupt, and you are inviting them into non-disruptive behavior. They will either get bored and leave, or freak out and give you reason to follow course number one. Never forget that trolls attack because it’s all about them. Make it about the website, and that hurts their fee fees.

        Change their comments to be agreeable, laughable or nonsensical. You have the power. It is a reaction without a reaction. Jeet kune do for commenting. They can’t control the situation if you provide evidence that they can’t control the situation.

        I mean no insult, here. I’m just telling you that reacting by telling others not to do what you just did (react) won’t work.

        • Whoops. Since I hadn’t read Lizard’s comment below before writing this one, I freely admit that I had forgotten that disagreeing with Lizard is an offense, and no doubts trolling. Please feel free to ignore these suggestions.

  10. Darwin26- forgive me for going off the topic of this thread but i must reply to the above- i devour trolls. relish them actually. swede is useful because he displays the sheer ignorance of the far right much more effectively than any of us could with vapid scolding.

    he is shameless in his zeal to assert contemptible values. but i believe criticism from the right is essential to sharpen our focus.

    the troll named gut check which misspelled my name (even though it is publicly displayed under my about problembear) was obviously from the democratic party – not the right. and whoever he/she is, obviously a coward hoping to silence me about messina. it has of course, only served to redouble my efforts.

    • lizard19

      oh well, this thread is blown for now anyway

      and besides, this tangent on trolls is instructive. perhaps rob can offer us some of his extensive knowledge on this topic.

      • Just did, smart ass. And you’re welcome.

        (Good dog, you can be pissant.)

        • lizard19

          yeah, you don’t need no invitation. thanks rob.

          • Lizard, your display of ‘sincerity’ leaves a lot to be desired. I can never tell when you’re waiting for the Great Pumpkin, and when you’re just telling us all how much better you are. I mean that, sincerely. One never needs to ask what direction I’m approaching from. With you, it’s always unclear. You may find that a virtue. Online, I suggest that it’s not so much.

            I don’t need an invitation at any post which offers open comments. That is the invitation, yes? I was actually trying to be helpful about something I know more than a little about. And all you do is mock, though I am to blame for not noticing your comment below before actually thinking my experience and opinion might have value to you. But I’m the offensive one, right?

            I’m going to choose to think that your thanks was sincere. I’m just not going to trust that choice. I don’t have much reason to.

            • lizard19

              you stated what i hoped you would, your opinion about trolls and how to deal with them, and you did so without seeing my invitation, which of course you don’t need in an open comment thread.

              and i’m not waiting for no pumpkin, i’m waiting for the aliens to come down and save mankind from destroying our ability to live on this planet and turning it into a toxic wasteland.

              • You’re still mocking. I’m not a conspiracy theorist. If I were, I would be holding to the idea that the Midgard serpent is tightening his grip, and that Loki is conspiring to release his 3rd child, the Fenris wolf onto a lax population. But no…

                Seriously, Liz, is it that troublesome to admit that one you’ve disagreed with before might be the same one you agree with now? And if not, why can’t you cowboy up and disagree honestly? Inquiring minds want to know …

                Cut the bullshit.

              • lizard19

                i was actually poking fun at myself, rob. i’ve been ridiculed more than a few times for being a conspiracy theorist.

                and what am i suppose to agree or disagree with you about? the part about trolls, which was helpful, or the part where you say things like:

                One never needs to ask what direction I’m approaching from. With you, it’s always unclear. You may find that a virtue. Online, I suggest that it’s not so much.

                again, this is your opinion, and it’s one i don’t agree with. i think i usually express myself pretty clearly, and i wouldn’t consider being unclear as a virtue.

                is that clear enough for you?

              • Lizard, I apologize. You have no way of knowing how … there are no words to describe it … blah blah blah … the last several weeks have been for me. I don’t trust where you’re coming from, but I do accept that you and I think of things in an entirely different manner. You are creative, and I am logical. (No Vulcan BS please. The Vulcans have it all wrong. Emotion is a firm part of logic. Just ask Hegel.)

                It is my hope that you and I can acknowledge this simple fact and move forward because of it. I really don’t know how you approach topics of discussion. It would be favored should you admit that you don’t appear to know how I approach them either. Regardless, I’m simply going to accept that we may not understand each other, but we have the will to butt heads over it. If you have a different ideal in mind, then I’m certain that you know how to respond.

              • lizard19

                this online stuff is a small piece of who we are and what we actually do. i hope this week goes better for you, rob.

                you’ve offered some good advice about how to respond to the antagonizing antics some people employ, and i really am absorbing it, because it bugs me when i make missteps, which is what i did in my initial response to Ingy.

                and i have no problem acknowledging that we have different approaches to issues. i think you’ve correctly identified that logic is not my thing (i have no interest in chess).

                anyway, thanks for the response rob. and i mean that sincerely.

  11. Yo! Problem Bear… nail the Neo-libs like Messina and Fleishman and their scumbag followers to the outside barn walls.
    i know it’s important for us to sharpen up on these dirt bags from the Neo Con or Neo Lib side. no need to be too nice.
    i’ll watch for swede –

    now to go play with the grand kids – carry on – i’ll be back!

    • lizard19

      not necessarily nice, but try your best to keep it as civil as possible. god knows i’ve tried to temper how i respond, because too much vitriol by any of us turns non-commenting readers off.

  12. Darwin- I am fleischman. Gut check mentioned my real name in a threatening manner in an ignorant attempt to defend messina.

    • Just to be clear, PBear. You have mentioned your name 4&20 before.

      While I am not defending or condeming Gut Check on his post, if your name is out there it is because you released it.

  13. It is very narrow line between deleting the the comments of “trolls” and censoring the comments of those who simply disagree with you. Ingy/Swede’s link to the “Banana Standard” is actually somewhat informational (you would be simply amazed at how many things in our life give off different kinds of radiation – including concrete). While I agree that he often posts simply to tweak noses, he sometimes has a point to it that seems to be missed by most who comment here.

    His aren’t the only comments “disappearing” either. I fully expect this one to go the way of the dodo. If you end up deleting all the comments that disagree with you, you will only end up with mutual masterbation.

    • lizard19

      none of his comments were deleted from this thread. i indicate when that happens. and when you admit guilt blatantly like he did, then it’s time for a warning.

      the banana link, yes, was interesting. the coulter ViD? she’s not even a good caricature of an extremist, more like performance art.

      who else has comments disappearing? i know pogo mentioned difficulty posting comments. when it comes to the technical machinations of blogging, i’m a bit ignorant.

      no one here that i know of is interested in deleting all the comments that disagree. and your expectation of our extinction is duly noted.

      • Actually, I have had two comments to this thread disappear (this prompted my last comment, btw, not because I thought that Ingy’s comments were disappearing). My expectation of my last comment disappearing was related to the previous comments that disappeared.

        • lizard19

          i can assure you i have not deleted any comments at all in this thread. maybe someone who knows better than me can indicate what the problem might be.

        • Askimet (the commenting software in use around these parts) seems to have some issues. It’s likely that your comments weren’t deleted, but they may not appear anyway. (No insult meant to any authors/bloggers around these here ‘Tubes.)

    • lizard19

      oh, and if you’re interested, that german dude has a new post up.

      • This was an interesting analysis of what has gone on in Reactor Number one. Not knowing the basic scematics of the reactor vessel itself, it’s composition (hopefully something like Inconel but…), it is hard to accept a few of his conclusions. This is an entirely different reactor system than the ones I operated (a water/steam reactor VS a pressurized water reactor) so I am not entirely sure I understand how the system is suppose to operate.

        All that said, there are a few things I agree with.

        1) I agree that this reactor’s core has, in fact, suffered a complete or near complete meltdown (certainly not in the Jane Fonda sense but probably a complete loss of integrity of the fuel cells). It is also likely that the hydrogen released by both the spent fuel cells and the reactor vessel itself has caused irradiation and fire damage to many of the systems – including those that monitor the reactor itself.

        2) Without knowing the exact alloys used in the construction of the reactor vessel, there is no way to determine just how likely it is to be close to brittle failure. Some steels and steel alloys become brittle quickly, some don’t. Inconel is one that doesn’t (and is incredibly resistant to corrosion which is why it is used in the US for both Naval and Civilian Reactors). If we assume that the vessel is Inconel, it is likely that it has survived the irradiation and corrosive sea water well, even given the age of the reactor. If it isn’t.. well that is above my pay grade. different metals have different tolerances.

        3) I found his conclusion that the reactor vessel lid lifted interesting. A far more likely scenario, though, is a weld fracture on one of the cooling pipes. If the pressure builds enough and a microscopic fracture results in a weld, it is likely to have expanded enough to release pressure without completely failing. This is FAR more likely than the vessel head to have lifted.

        Anyway, What this person has written is interesting reading but I would take his conclusions with a grain of salt. It is obvious that, while being an engineer, he has as many questions about the accident as I do and his conclusions are only “best guesses” based on the information supplied to him by someone else.

  14. Agreed moorcat. In fact, professional payday lender trolls enabled us to focus and defeat their greedy logic and put the shame of their”predation of the poor” value system on display. Their moral bankruptcy was magnified by their attempts to defend a reprehensible business model.

    trolls are their own worse enemies. In this way I find them very useful.

  15. JC

    Problembear hits it on the nose when we points to the benefits of having those who disagree with us come in here to argue.

    I for one enjoy learning how the right and tea baggers, and conservatives, and democrats, and all the rest think. It helps me to understand the plight our country, society and world is in right now, and how to respond to it.

    Just listening to Ingy and Coobs and Rusty, et. al really helps me to understand just how whack a large segment of our country is. And it’s not that they aren’t intelligent, it’s that ideology trumps rational behavior. Too much time spent with Fox News Entertainment on in the background amounts to a brainwashing. Too much time relying on Drudge to point you to news leads to lopsided thinking–rewriting headlines to slant the take manipulates people’s perspectives and creates a self-fullfilling narrative.

    On and on. I participate here and write and comment precisely because it is instructive and informative–not a preaching to the choir–and helps me to go about my work-a-day life better prepared and to understand why we have such huge conflict in the world. And I often write what I do because I know there are a lot of silent readers out there who need to hear things, and think about stuff in different ways. And then to see how the flack unfolds in response.

  16. akismet-72473829c8ac575165fb598db916fb3e

    it says i’m logged in akismet and some long bunch of numbers’n letters?? does this mean anything?

    Anyway, JC, PB cover my sentiments precisely. We can’t get a good picture in a room full of choir boys ‘n girls. and must admit the link what’s his face posted with the German engineer was hot.

    There’s a ‘Fleishman’ who was the was the SEIU chump of chumps parading the Public Option around MT and paying astro turf all over MT to buy/sell this load of manure-bait. i’m hoping it wasn’t you PB and from the sounds of it of you are not the same SEIU Baucus hand picked Goon.

  17. Jim fleischman (no relation oddly enough) used to be involved in union based stuff here in missoula. Also montana peoples action I. Believe. He did some good work as I recall. Haven’t heard anything about him in a long time. We’ve never met.

    • JC

      Jim’s a good dude. I worked with/around him for years. People may take him to task politically for his association with Baucus, but his heart’s in the right place, and he’s done a ton of good for people, that most of us will never approach. In addition to union and MPA stuff, he worked with ACORN. He doesn’t deserve being dissed for working on SEIU’s campaign for the public option.

      And there was that little stint that he did heading Baucus’ reelection campaign last time around, though, that crops up. Of course, Max was a shoo-in, and I think Jim referred to that job as the best paying job he had for really having to do nothing (other than manage a no-lose campaign). Even I, one of Max’s harshest critics here, worked on that campaign.

      Everybody deserves to have a job every now and then that lets them buy a new (or lightly used) car. Or whatever it is that tickles your fancy.

      • Steve W

        I saw Jim on MTPT 11.5 testifying to the legislature as an informational witness in favor of fusion voting in Montana.

        Good on him!

        • Pete Talbot

          Jim Fleishmann, AKA ‘Flash’, is not problembear (notice the extra ‘n’ at the end of the name).

          That being said, I defended Messina, a little bit, in a problembear post last week on the subject of Obama’s re-election campaign. Got some shit for it, too, and rightfully so — to some extent.

          And I’ll take some shit for saying one-or-two kind things about Messina. I will not take any for defending Flash.

          Darwin, I usually appreciate your comments here at 4&20 but this time you’re way off base. JC does an excellent job (above) describing Flash’s background.

          Flash also helped organize low-income mobile-home owners and gave them a voice. He was one of the key leaders in the New Party — a third party experiment that challenged status quo Republicans AND Democrats (until it was crushed by status quo Republicans and Democrats, and a U.S. Supreme Court ruling that disallowed fusion voting).

          Yeah, we should have universal, single-payer health care but Flash working for a public option wasn’t a sell out, it was a fall back position.

          And yeah, he worked on the Baucus campaign. Max had something like $10 million to spend on a race he was sure to win. Flash helped organize some of the ‘burger feeds’ that Baucus threw around the state and got well paid for it. I’ll bet he used a little of that money to support progressive causes. Hell, I’d have taken some of that cash and I hate Max Baucus.

          Flash has done more to fight the corporations, help the little guys and gals, and advance progressive values than just about anybody I know. So next time, Darwin, do a little research before you start pounding on the keyboard.

          • never heard anyone speak anything but good about jim fleishcmann around missoula pete. he has done a lot for poor folks in montana.

            messina has done good work too. but to those who were not only denied a seat at the table regarding HCR but were arrested for even speaking out, the name jim messina has become forever synonymous with betrayal.

  18. I have to agree with the “hall monitor” comment Lizard. Chill out, a bit.

    • lizard19

      it would be a lot more interesting if there was more stuff about the topic of the post in this thread and less arm chair quarterbacking about how i choose to respond to the stupidity that crops up from certain commenters, don’tchya think?

      • Two suggestions:

        1. If you think someone is a troll then just don’t respond.

        2. Allow yourself to accept that trolls do not include everyone who refuses to pay you accolades and obediently go down your narrowly defined path that can only end in complete support of your predetermined definition of “the truth.”

        3. Take Rob’s advice.

        4. When you start arguing with everyone who offers criticism then you end up trolling your own post.

        • lizard19

          i can’t do both #1 and both #3, because Rob thinks ignoring trolls is wrong.

          Sorry, Liz, but I disagree with that. I mean no offense, but you are wrong here. Trolls invariably begin with their weakest attacks. Ignoring them invites stronger stuff.

          what i initially objected to with ingy is the purposeful attempt to derail the purpose of the post.

          but i can be a hypocrite, and did something similar at ECB, so maybe i should have just “chilled out” since that is ingy’s schtick.

          then there’s moorcat’s initial comment:

          This is the wrong forum to argue anything having to do with radiation, nuclear power or anything to do with nuclear anything. Emotion outweighs intellect here and I have given up even attempting to discuss nuclear subjects here. years of working as a nuclear reactor for creds and still, everything I have to say on the subject is dismissed out of hand. You are wasting your time unless you are just trying to tweek noses.

          that comment bothers me because it’s based on ONE other post, and moorcat’s depiction of that thread and his treatment is not accurate.

          in hindsight, i should have ignored ingy, but moorcat’s comment necessitated a response.

          and finally your depiction of me in #2 is your opinion, and i don’t agree with it. if that were true, i would be deleting a lot of comments. as it stands, i’ve only felt compelled to trash maybe a half dozen comments.

          don’t worry, i don’t expect an apology pogo. believe what you want about me. but don’t expect me to silently let inaccurate criticism of me stand as fact.

  19. I don’t hide it pogo. My name is in about problembear. Has been for months. That’s why I found gut check’s lame attempt at a threat to protect messina so ridiculous.
    Is everyone clear about that now?

  20. One thing I like about 4 and 20 is there is total freedom liz. Each poster is free to conduct the edit of his/her post’s thread as they see fit.
    I am not big on rules.

  21. Hey Liz –

    Can everyone here agree to just delete all the comments, and start over, or leave them, but have Liz make a fresh post so we can start over? I think it’s interesting. I found the banana link interesting, I think Moorcat has some insights obviously (and if I recall from previous discussions, JC knows a thing or two about this stuff too). This could be an interesting discussion, and I’m sad to see it get derailed.

  22. OK. I’ll leap off: What if the reactor be allowed to melt down, case the opening and allow seawater to become steam to turn a turbine?

    • A number of problems.

      1) the reactor melting down is a bad thing for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that the metal used for the Fuel rods in that reactor produces Hydrogen when it gets too hot. Further, when the reactor melts down, there is no way to control it. It won’t go critical, but there is no way to control the residual heat. As heat builds up, the vessel itself is damaged.

      2) In a normal functioning reactor, the chemistry of the water is tightly controlled. Heat + O2 = corrosion and when you add a corrosive agent like salt, it just gets that much worse. Not withstanding the fact that corrosion weakens the reactor system, it also becomes irradiated (radioactive) adding to the problem. Flooding the reactor with sea water was a last ditch effort to cool the reactor. When they did that, they were already writing off the reactor system. It will never recover even if it didn’t melt down.

      There are other problems as well, but those are the two primary ones that I can see right off the top.

      • JC

        The other problem with using sea water to cool the reactor and the spent fuel rod pools is that as water steams/boils off, it leaves salt. And as the cooling spaces fill with salt, the ability to get water to the fuel rods diminishes. How this plays out I don’t think is completely understood, but it is not a good thing.

      • lizard19

        from some of the stuff i read, it seems like the sarcophagus solution is something that will need to happen.

        the german blogger i linked to has had something he said a week ago validated today. he said dumping some of the radioactive water into the sea would need to happen. now today they’re dumping 11,000 tons of water into the ocean.

        so it seems, to a novice like me, that some of the stuff that needs to happen is known, but it’s taking them too long to come to the same conclusions, and act.

        • JC

          Even if they decide to bury one or more reactors in concrete, the more they can do to bring things under control, the less the long-termn fallout will be.

          There are no easy choices to be made right now. Everything is improvisational. Hopefully, many lessons will be learned in the case of future incidents, and plans will be laid out how to respond to events like Fukushima, or similar.

          Imagine what would have happened in the U.S. if one of the 9/11 terrorists had decided to crash a plane into Indian Point, a nuclear reactor 38 miles north of New York City. The thought disturbs me greatly.

        • From a tweet I read several days ago, it would appear that dumping radioactive water back into the sea will harm Japan’s off-shore food supply. As I’m certain that we all know, Americans see sea-food as a fine dinner out. To the Japanese, it is a staple of even their snack food. Given that, I can understand why it may have taken “too long” for the Japanese to have made the call to dump radioactive water back into the ocean.

        • This wasn’t a long shot prediction. While Rob is correct, that dumping the contaminated water into the sea is a really bad idea for the Japanese, it was a given that eventually it had to happen for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that there is no effective way to remove the contamination from the sea water and there is no where to store it or tranport it to where it could be decontaminated.

          It should also be understood that this was the least damaging of the alternatives (not that there were a lot of them). Sea water, itself is a shielding agent. Further, when you consider just how much sea water there is in the ocean, the dispersal effect will limit the damage the radioactive isotopes can cause. Where you will see effects, though, is the very thing that caused the delay – in Japan’s primary food source. Worse, like mercury, many radioactive isotopes will have a cumulative effect on fish and other sea life – building up concentrations until it overcomes the organism (or worse, until something else consumes it – building up concentrations in that organism).

          I fully expect that our country (as well as others) will end up supplying food to Japan for some time to come to replace the contaminated food supply (both aquatic and terrestrial).

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